Brenda Agnew and Jordan Assaraf are joined by lawyer, speaker, and host of The Trauma-Informed Lawyer podcast, Myrna McCallum. Together, they talk about how trauma shows up in the legal world, for both clients and lawyers, and why creating a safe, empathetic space is essential to the profession. Myrna shares stories from her own life, including her work on the Indian Residential Schools adjudication process, and how her own healing journey led to her passion for trauma-informed advocacy. They dive into the importance of curiosity over judgment, the role of nervous system regulation in difficult conversations, and why authenticity (not perfection) is key to connection.
Key Takeaways:
[3:05] Myrna talks about the Justice as Trauma Conference.
[5:13] What does it mean to be trauma informed?
[7:39] Working as an adjudicator: what Myrna learned about humanity, harm, and healing.
[9:28] Myrna shares her personal background, including her traumatic upbringing and early experiences.
[10:58] Why trauma-informed lawyering isn’t a “soft skill”, and how safety leads to stronger client relationships.
[14:41] The three things you need to be trauma informed. [19:44] The physiological side of trauma: how the nervous system responds to harm and why it matters in legal settings. [25:03] How practicing curiosity and self-awareness can reduce re-traumatization in clients and witnesses. [28:56] Brenda, Jordan, and Myrna discuss how vicarious trauma affects lawyers and legal professionals. [34:20] Building sustainable practices: how rest, boundaries, and authenticity support long-term legal careers. [39:41] Why even well-meaning lawyers can cause harm, and how to recover and learn when that happens.
Mentioned in this episode:
To learn more about the work we do at Gluckstein Lawyers, please visit Gluckstein Lawyers.
To learn more about Myrna:
Myrna: Website | Justice as Trauma Conference
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Gluckstein Lawyers on Linkedin
Tweetables and quotes:
“The conversation of trauma and law, and trauma and justice and how those two things meet up is gaining momentum. It’s a global conversation.” - Myrna [3:07]
“Being trauma informed is something that lawyers can do and should be expected to do, given how much trauma travels in all these different practice areas.” - Myrna [6:05]
“I believe that lawyers should be expected to receive all of us when we sit down with our fears, our stresses, and our anxieties. And I think being educated on trauma and how trauma plays a role in your decision-making, your emotional response, your behavior, all of those things, is the bare minimum.” - Myrna [7:49]
“Just because somebody struggles to tell you their narrative doesn't mean they're trying to deceive you. There are deeper things happening.” - Myrna [13:10]
“I believe that the key to trust is transparency. Be as transparent as possible.” - Myrna [22:11]
“It begins with education, and we can choose to get educated now.” - Myrna [26:16]
“I think for every time we show up with our humanity, we lead with our humanity, we recognize humanity and other people, this is how we rebuild the credibility of a profession that, if we're being honest, has zero credibility right now.” - Myrna [34:08]