The Biblical Mind

Is church just a place to think about God—or are we wired to worship together? In this groundbreaking episode, theologian Dr. Josh Cockayne and developmental psychologist Dr. Gideon Salter join Dru Johnson to explore how human beings are made for joint attention, and why gathering for worship is a deeply embodied, social necessity. Drawing from their book Why We Gather, the conversation unfolds how infants develop the skill of “joint attention”—the ability to notice something with someone else—and how this same capacity is essential to biblical worship, from Genesis to Revelation. They argue that worship isn’t merely cognitive or emotional—it’s communal, embodied, and neurologically formative. Togetherness isn’t a nice-to-have; it’s the foundation of how we know God and the world. From communion rituals and infant behavior to liturgical design and online church, the episode provides a practical, psychologically grounded, and theologically rich vision of church that challenges both individualism and shallow expressions of “community.” For their book "Why We Gather," see the publisher's website here: https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481322911/why-we-gather/ We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to Worship and Individual Experience 02:59 The Role of the Body in Worship 06:02 Joint Attention and Its Importance 09:20 The Collaboration Between Psychology and Theology 12:12 Understanding Joint Attention in Worship 15:17 The Impact of Joint Attention on Community Worship 18:05 Liturgy and Joint Attention in Practice 21:09 Theological Implications of Joint Attention 24:04 Cultural Jointness and Worship 27:06 Conclusion and Reflections on Worship 27:42 Children's Participation in Church 28:42 Exploring Joint Attention in Liturgical Settings 30:57 The Role of Community in Worship 32:36 Understanding Jointness and Joint Attention 35:12 The Dynamics of Participation in Worship 36:18 Theological Perspectives on Joint Attention 38:12 The Biological and Social Aspects of Gathering 41:44 Critiques of Theoretical Frameworks in Worship

What gives someone the right to script your prayers? In this powerful conversation, Douglas McKelvey, author of the bestselling Every Moment Holy liturgical series, joins Dru Johnson to unpack the spiritual and theological journey behind his work. From a childhood steeped in neo-charismatic theology to a disillusioning college experience at Oral Roberts University, McKelvey shares how God used a profound unraveling—what many today might call “deconstruction”—to rebuild a biblically coherent faith through unexpected mentors and communities. Listeners learn how McKelvey became part of the Art House Foundation and later the Rabbit Room, drawing from the legacies of Francis Schaeffer, Edith Schaeffer, and Andrew Peterson to create a community of artists grounded in Scripture. Along the way, he opens up about the fear and trembling that should attend writing liturgies—and what it means to write prayers people will carry into their most vulnerable moments. This episode explores beauty, hospitality, ritual, and the theological integrity behind the words we say to God. Whether you're a liturgy lover, creative, or just someone seeking coherent theology after chaos, this is an episode that will stay with you. Learn more about the Art House and Rabbit Room here: https://www.arthousenashville.com/our-story https://www.rabbitroom.com/ We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to the Rabbit Room 02:22 The Evolution of the Rabbit Room 05:17 Community and Connection in the Rabbit Room 08:29 The Significance of Northwind Manor 11:31 Personal Journey and Theological Foundations 14:10 Navigating Doubt and Deconstruction 23:08 Charlie Peacock and the Art House Foundation 26:29 The Art House and Its Influence 31:04 The Physical Space of the Art House 34:20 Theological Foundations for Artists 36:33 Every Moment Holy: A Journey of Prayer 43:13 The Impact of Ritual in Prayer 50:43 Reflections on the Craft of Prayer 52:18 The Rabbit Room: A Hub for Creativity  

What if our biggest biblical misunderstandings come from reading the right words in the wrong way? In this episode, Old Testament scholar Dr. Andy Judd joins Dru Johnson to unravel the complex and often misused concept of genre in biblical interpretation. Drawing from his background in English literature and law, Dr. Judd explains how many theological debates, misreadings, and even dangerous interpretations arise not from misused Hebrew dictionaries—but from unspoken assumptions about genre. Why do readers assume Abraham’s behavior is exemplary? Why do sermons treat biblical laws like modern legal codes? Why do people interpret apocalyptic visions as historical predictions? From Genesis to Judges, Paul’s letters to Revelation, Judd shows that failing to ask, “What kind of text is this?” is often where interpretation goes off the rails. Blending humor, literary theory, and deep biblical insight, Judd offers practical ways to become better “travelers” in the ancient biblical world—learning to coordinate with texts the way we coordinate with traffic rules in a new country. Andy Judd's personal website can be found here: https://www.andyjudd.com/ We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 00:54 The Journey into Genre Studies 03:26 Misinterpretations and Conflicts in Biblical Genre 06:26 Understanding Narrative and Ethical Frameworks 10:18 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation 12:39 Defining Genre: Conventions and Contexts 14:37 Cultural Contexts and Genre Navigation 18:35 The Boomerang Test: A Practical Approach to Genre 24:32 Deep Structures and Genre Regulation 28:08 Understanding Genre in Scripture 33:54 The Role of Genre in Biblical Interpretation 39:22 Biblical Law: A Unique Genre 43:56 The Social Function of Biblical Law 49:42 Wisdom and the Interpretation of Law

Is loving your family first a biblical idea—or a betrayal of Jesus’ call to love your neighbor? In this thought-provoking episode, Mike Tolliver—Executive Director of the Center for Hebraic Thought—joins Dru Johnson to explore his developing PhD thesis on Storge (family love), the kinsman-redeemer, and what biblical justice actually looks like. Drawing on Torah, philosophy, and early Christian texts, Mike argues that Storge love is not only natural—it’s essential to a functioning society, and that Israel’s family-based justice system was designed to eliminate categories like “orphan” and “widow.” He explores why Paul uses the metaphor of adoption—and not kinsman-redeemer—for Gentile inclusion, and why the Ten Commandments are saturated with family ethics. From Sophie's Choice-style sermon illustrations to questions about circumcision, baptism, and ethnic election, this episode unpacks the implications of what it means to love your kin without devaluing the stranger. As Mike prepares for PhD work, his big question is: What does rightly ordered family love look like in Scripture—and what happens when it gets misordered? We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Exploring Academic Pursuits and Career Paths 05:47 The Kinsman Redeemer: A Social Safety Net 14:35 Storge and Kinsman Redeemer in Biblical Context 19:54 Theological Implications of Kinship and Election 27:34 Exploring the Promise of Descendancy 29:03 Navigating the Path to a PhD 30:56 The Challenge of Proposal Writing 31:57 Understanding Storge in Hebraic Thought 39:07 The Role of Storge in the Ten Commandments 41:07 Stranger Love vs. Family Love 43:55 Moral Dilemmas in Love 49:56 The Future of Intergenerational Family Focus

What does it mean to call something “Christian music”? Nick Barré has spent decades in the music industry—from working at EMI with early Switchfoot to managing major names like Casting Crowns, KB, Brandon Heath, and more. In this 200th episode of The Biblical Mind, he joins Dru Johnson to reflect on the Christian music label, the tension between calling and category, and how artists navigate faith and fame. Nick argues that labeling music—or restaurants or plumbers—as “Christian” may do more harm than good. He shares why genre categories are a business necessity but spiritually unhelpful, and why the most important questions artists must answer are about calling, audience, and identity—not chart placement. From spiritual burnout to public affirmation, from the temptations of platform to the dangers of envy, Nick shares pastoral, industry-hardened wisdom on how to guide artists into longevity and spiritual wholeness. He even offers advice for aspiring Christian musicians—and what it really means to “show, not tell” when pursuing a creative calling. Nick Barre's Company "Proper Management" can be found here: https://www.propermanagement.net We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Defining Christian Music 03:11 The Evolution of Music Genres 06:10 Navigating the Music Industry 08:57 The Dangers of Labeling 12:09 The Role of Artists in Ministry 15:16 The Impact of Fame on Identity 18:24 Identifying Unique Gifts in Artists 25:41 Exploring Diverse Artist Portfolios 28:29 Navigating Hard Conversations in the Music Industry 31:05 Defining Success in the Arts 33:15 The Challenge of Artistic Compromise 37:06 Understanding Market Dynamics in Music 40:22 Fragmentation of the Music Industry 46:39 Advice for Aspiring Christian Artists

In this episode, Dr. Dru Johnson sits down with Matt Whitman, host of The Ten Minute Bible Hour, to explore why so many Christians—and skeptics—struggle with Scripture. Whitman shares what he’s learned from engaging millions online: people are often afraid to be wrong, shaped by graceless experiences in church and cancel culture in the wider world. The solution? Modeling curiosity, empathy, and intellectual humility. Whitman opens up about his own faith journey, the impact of church hurt, and why he makes space for disagreement and exploration in his content. From deconstructing popular biblical themes to highlighting the beauty of traditions outside his own, Matt argues that deep scriptural engagement thrives in environments where it’s okay not to have all the answers. Together, Dru and Matt delve into themes like biblical coherence, the importance of interpretive grace, and what it means to approach the Bible not as experts, but as learners. Their conversation models the very ethos they preach: thoughtful, generous dialogue rooted in the belief that God’s grace extends to our minds—not just our sins. For More of Matt Whitman and the Ten Minute Bible Hour: https://www.youtube.com/@UC3vIOVJiXigzVDA2TYqaa0Q https://www.facebook.com/thetenminutebiblehour https://www.instagram.com/tenminutebiblehour https://www.twitter.com/MattWhitmanTMBH https://www.threads.com/@mattwhitmantmbh We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction 00:54 Resistance to the Bible and Church Experiences 04:57 Cultural Resistance and Historical Context 07:44 Navigating Hurt and Church Experiences 10:56 Empathy and Understanding in Conversations 14:21 Normalizing Being Wrong 17:20 Internal Cohesion in Christianity 25:38 Universal Themes in the Bible 32:44 Navigating Biblical Interpretation and Truth 35:43 The Complexity of Biblical Truth 37:55 The Pressure of Pastoral Performance 42:14 The Challenge of Authenticity in Teaching 45:32 Modeling Intellectual Grace and Humility 49:40 Creating a Gracious Learning Environment 53:16 The Nature of Knowledge and Learning in Faith

What happens when science, religion, and education collide? In this episode, Dr. Rachel Pear shares her remarkable journey from growing up in New York’s modern Orthodox Jewish community to researching how evolution is taught and received across Israeli society. A scholar of science education and prehistoric archaeology, Rachel discusses how Jewish, Christian, and Muslim communities in Israel grapple differently with the question of human origins. Why do some teachers avoid the topic altogether? Why do secular and religious students draw such hard lines around what’s “acceptable” to believe? And how do family, community, and national identity shape scientific acceptance? Rachel also shares her experience presenting three distinct rabbinic views on evolution in schools, showing students that Jewish thought isn’t monolithic—and that questioning is part of the tradition. She explores the cultural weight of science, the legacy of eugenics, and how educators can create space for real dialogue in science classrooms. Whether you’re an educator, a religious thinker, or just curious about how evolution meets identity, this episode offers a rich, honest look at a complex conversation that’s still evolving. We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought/ X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to Rachel's Journey 02:49 Exploring Prehistoric Archaeology and Cultural Contexts 05:48 The Intersection of Evolution and Religion 08:48 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution in Israel 11:57 The Role of Education in Science and Religion 14:57 Diverse Views on Evolution in Arab Schools 17:58 The Complexity of Science and Cultural Identity 20:50 Reflections on Science, Culture, and Religion 27:27 Navigating Values in Education 32:20 The Complexity of Teaching Evolution 35:53 Epistemology and the Scientific Method 40:51 Cultural Perspectives on Evolution 45:32 The Intersection of Tradition and Modernity

Is the relationship between Islam and science as well-developed as it is in Christianity? Not even close—but that’s changing. In this episode, Dr. Shoaib Ahmed Malik, Lecturer in Science and Religion at the University of Edinburgh, joins Dru Johnson to share the emerging field of Islam and science, focusing on the hot topic of evolution. Shoaib unpacks the historical development of Islamic engagement with science, tracing it from early encounters with Western scientific frameworks to the present. He explains why the Islamic world lacks infrastructure like textbooks, academic chairs, and journals for the science-religion conversation—and why that’s finally beginning to change. But what about evolution? Shoaib shares why it remains a highly sensitive subject in Muslim-majority countries (including stories of professors losing jobs over it) and how Muslim views differ from Christian ones, especially around original sin, Adam, and human suffering. This is an honest, fascinating look at how Muslims are navigating modern science, why cultural and religious taboos persist, and how Shoaib’s work is shaping new conversations at the intersection of Islamic theology and science. We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought/ X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to Shoaib Ahmed Malik's Journey 03:11 Transition from Engineering to Humanities 06:00 Teaching Experience in the UAE 09:14 Pursuing Philosophy, Science, and Religion 12:18 Publishing and Academic Recognition 15:11 Navigating Career Changes and New Opportunities 18:29 Exploring Science and Religion Conversations 26:43 Navigating Conversations with Students 27:29 Understanding Islam: Sunni vs Shia 30:19 The Contemporary Muslim World: Sunni and Shia Dynamics 31:34 The Intellectual History of Islam 35:17 Muslim Perspectives on Science and Religion 39:01 Islamization of Science: A Discourse Emerges 42:48 The Development of Islamic Science Education 44:25 Evolution and Its Reception in the Muslim World 48:11 Unique Questions Muslims Ask About Evolution

What happens when you put 15 scholars—scientists and theologians, Muslim, Jewish, and Christian—in a room to talk about creation? In this episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, Dr. Dru Johnson shares his experience launching the Abrahamic Theistic Origins Project in Oxford. Far from being a formal academic conference, the gathering focused on “enduring collegial co-learning”—building trust and curiosity across disciplines and faith traditions. The participants explored how evolutionary biology, genetics, astrophysics, and artificial intelligence intersect with theological questions about human uniqueness, creation, and divine action. Dru explains why religious identity didn’t hinder the conversation—it enriched it, and why the bigger challenge was translating between scientists and theologians. He also shares a fascinating insight on Neanderthals and menopause, and how that single biological feature opens a window into intergenerational care, legacy, and biblical values. The project raises bold questions: Can we build a biblical philosophy of science? Does Hebraic thought inform scientific methods? And what does it look like to think with Scripture—not just about it—in a scientific age? We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought/ X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org Chapters 00:00 Exploring Creation Theology and Science 02:58 Building Collegial Relationships Among Scholars 05:43 Navigating Interfaith Dialogues 08:52 Understanding Diverse Perspectives on Origins 13:59 The Intersection of Science and Theistic Beliefs 21:40 Christian Views on Human Origins 30:08 Pragmatism and Empiricism in Biblical Thought

Was the Mosaic Law a burdensome set of rules meant to be broken? Did Jesus overthrow the Torah—or fulfill it? In this special episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, we revisit the pilot episode of the Jesus and the Jewish Law podcast, hosted by Paul Sloan and Logan Williams. Together, they walk through seven widespread misconceptions about the Law and how these misunderstandings distort our reading of both the Old and New Testaments. You’ll hear why the Law was never meant to be a ladder to earn salvation, how it was designed to maintain God’s presence among His people, and why ritual purity doesn’t equal sin. They also explore the difference between distinction and exclusion, how the Law does not uniformly obligate all humans, and how Jesus builds on—not breaks—the Torah’s ethical depth. If you’ve ever wrestled with questions about the sacrificial system, purity laws, Gentile inclusion, or what Jesus really meant in the Sermon on the Mount, this episode offers a clear, accessible, and richly Hebraic guide to reading the Law like Jesus did.   Jesus and Jewish Law Podcast: Apple = https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jesus-and-jewish-law/id1791111864 Spotify = https://open.spotify.com/show/1QCKgVOnEmtfFwRQtWlBSV   We are listener supported. Give to the cause here: https://hebraicthought.org/give For more articles: https://thebiblicalmind.org/ Social Links: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HebraicThought/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hebraicthought/ Threads: https://www.threads.net/hebraicthought/ X: https://www.twitter.com/HebraicThought/ Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/hebraicthought.org   Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:01 Misconceptions About the Law: An Overview 05:57 Debunking Misconceptions: The Nature of the Law 12:08 Understanding Impurity and Its Implications 17:59 The Role of Sacrifice in the Law 20:02 Conclusion and Future Topics