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Papilledema describes optic disc swelling (usually bilateral) arising from raised intracranial pressure. Due to its serious nature, there is a fear of underdiagnosis; hence, one major stumbling points is correct identification, which typically requires a thorough ocular examination including visual field testing. In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD speaks with Susan P. Mollan, MBChB, PhD, FRCOphth, author of the article “Papilledema” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue. Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana. Dr. Mollan is a professor and neuro-ophthalmology consultant at University Hospitals Birmingham in Birmingham, United Kingdom. Additional Resources Read the article: Papilledema Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @IUneurodocmom Guest: @DrMollan Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Nevel: Hello, this is Dr Kait Nevel. Today I'm interviewing Dr Susan Mollan about her article Papilledema Diagnosis and Management, which appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Susie, welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Mollan: Thank you so much, Kait. It's a pleasure to be here today. I'm Susie Mollan, I'm a consultant neuro-ophthalmologist, and I work at University Hospitals Birmingham- and that's in England. Dr Nevel: Wonderful. So glad to be talking to you today about your article. To start us off, can you please share with us what you think is the most important takeaway from your article for the practicing neurologist? Dr Mollan: I think really the most important thing is about examining the fundus and actually trying to visualize the optic nerves. Because as neurologists, you're really acutely trained in examining the cranial nerves, and often people shy away from looking at the eyes. And it can give people such confidence when they're able to really work out straightaway whether there's going to be a problem or there's not going to be a problem with papilledema. And I guess maybe a little bit later on we can talk about the article and tips and tricks for looking at the fundus. But I think that would be my most important thing to take away. Dr Nevel: I'm so glad that you started with that because, you know, that's something that I find with trainees in general, that they often find one of the more daunting or challenging aspects of learning, really, how to do an excellent neurological exam is examining the fundus and feeling confident in diagnosing papilledema. What kind of advice do you give to trainees learning this skill? Dr Mollan: So, it really is practice and always carrying your ophthalmoscope with you. There's lots of different devices that people can choose to buy. But really, if you have a direct ophthalmoscope, get it out in the ward, get it out in clinic. Look at those patients that you'd know have alternative diagnosis, but it gives you that practice. I also invite everybody to come to the eye clinic because we have dilated patients there all the time. We have diabetic retinopathy clinics, and it makes it really easy to start to acquire those skills because I think it's very tricky, because you're getting a highly magnified view of the optic nerve and you've got to sort out in your head what you're actually looking at. I think it's practice. and then use every opportunity to really look at the fundus, and then ask your ophthalmology colleagues whether you can go to clinic. Dr Nevel: Wonderful advice. What do you think is most challenging about the evaluation of papilledema and why? Dr Mollan: I think there are many different aspects that are challenging, and these patients come from lots of different areas. They can come from the family doctor, they can come from an optician or another specialist. A lot of them can have headache. And, as you know, headache is almost ubiquitous in the population. So, trying to pull out the sort of salient symptoms that can go across so many different conditions. There's nothing that's pathognomonic for papilledema other than looking at the optic nerves. So, I think it's difficult because the presentation can be difficult. The actual history can be challenging. There are those rare patients that don't have headache, don't have pulsatile tinnitus, but can still have papilledema. So, I think it- the most challenging thing is actually confirming papilledema. And if you're not able to confirm it, getting that person to somebody who's able to help and confirm or refute papilledema is the most important thing. Dr Nevel: Yeah, right. Because you talk in your article the importance of distinguishing between papilledema and some other diagnoses that can look like papilledema but aren't papilledema. Can you talk about that a little bit? Dr Mollan: Absolutely. I think in the article it's quite nice because we were able to spend a bit of time on a big table going through all the pseudopapilledema diagnoses. So that includes people with shortsightedness, longsightedness, people with optic nerve head drusen. And we've been very fortunate in ophthalmology that we now have 3D imaging of the optic nerve. So, it makes it quite clear to us, when it's pseudopapilledema, it's almost unfair when you're using the direct ophthalmoscope that you don't get a cross sectional image through that optic nerve. So, I'd really sort of recommend people to delve into the article and look at that table because it nicely picks out how you could pick up pseudopapilledema versus papilledema. Dr Nevel: Perfect. In your article, you also talk about what's important to think about in terms of causes of papilledema and what to evaluate for. Can you tell us, you know, when you see someone who you diagnose with papilledema, what do you kind of run through in terms of diagnostic tests and things that you want to make sure you're evaluating for or not missing? Dr Mollan: Yeah. So, I think the first thing is, is once it's confirmed, is making sure it's isolated or whether there's any additional cranial nerve palsies. So that might be particularly important in terms of double vision and a sixth nerve palsy, but also not forgetting things like corneal sensation in the rest of the cranial nerves. I then make sure that we have a blood pressure. And that sounds a bit ridiculous in this day and age because everybody should have a blood pressure coming to clinic or into the emergency room. But sometimes it's overlooked in the panic of thinking, gosh, I need to investigate this person. And if you find that somebody does have malignant hypertension, often what we do is we kind of stop the investigational pathway and go down the route of getting the medics involved to help with lowering the blood pressure to a safe level. I would then always think about my next thing in terms of taking some bloods. I like to rule out anemia because anemia can coexist in a lot of different conditions of raised endocranial pressure. And so, taking some simple blood such as a complete blood count, checking the kidney function, I think is important in that investigational pathway. But you're not really going to stop there. You're going to move on to neuroimaging. It doesn't really matter what you do, whether you do a CT or an MRI, it's just getting that imaging pretty much on the same day as you see the patient. And the key point to that imaging is to do venography. And you want to rule out a venous sinus thrombosis cause that's the one thing that is really going to cause the patient a lot of morbidity. Once your neuroimaging is secure and you're happy, there's no structural lesion or a thrombosis, it's then reviewing that imaging to make sure it's safe to proceed with lumbar puncture. And so, we would recommend the lumbar puncture in the left lateral decubitus position and allowing the patient to be as calm and relaxed as possible to be able to get that accurate opening pressure. Once we get that, we can send the CSF for contents, looking for- making sure they don't have any signs of meningitis or raised protein. And then, really, we're at that point of saying, you know, we should have a secure diagnosis, whether it would be a structural lesion, venous sinus thrombosis, or idiopathic intracranial hypertension. Dr Nevel: Wonderful. Thank you for that really nice overview and, kind of, diagnostic pathway and stepwise thought process in the evaluations that we do. There are several different treatments for papilledema that you go through in your article, ranging from surgical to medication options. When we're taking care of an individual patient, what factors do you use to help guide you in this decision-making process of what treatment is best for the patient and how urgent treatment is? Dr Mollan: I think that's a really important question because there's two things to consider here. One is, what is the underlying diagnosis? Which, hopefully, through the investigational save, you'll have been able to achieve a secure diagnosis. But going along that investigational pathway, which determines the urgency of treatment, is, what's happening with the vision? If we have somebody where we're noting that the vision is affected- and normally it's actually through a formal visual field. And that's really challenging for lots of people to get in the emergency situation because syndromes of raised endocranial pressure often don't cause problems with the visual acuity or the color vision until it's very late. And also, you won't necessarily get a relative afferent papillary defect because often it's bilateral. So I really worry if any of those signs are there in somebody that may have papilledema. And so, a lot rests on that visual field. Now, we're quite good at doing confrontational visual fields, but I would say that most neurologists should be carrying pins to be able to look at the visual fields rather than just pointing fingers and quadrants if you're not able to get a formal visual field early. It's from that I would then determine if the vision is affected, I need to step up what I'm going to do. So, I think the sort of next thing to think about is that sort of vision. So, if we have somebody who, you know, you define as have severe sight loss at the point that you're going through this investigational pathway, you need to get an ophthalmologist or a neuro-ophthalmologist on board to help discuss either the surgery teams as to whether you need to be heading towards an intervention. And there are a number of different types of intervention. And the reason why we discuss it in the article---and we'll also be discussing it in a future issue of Continuum---is there's not high-class evidence to suggest one surgery over another surgery. We may touch on this later. So, we've got our patients with severe visual loss who we need to do something immediately. We may have people where the papilledema is moderate, but the vision isn't particularly affected. They may just have an enlarged blind spot. For those patients, I think we definitely need to be thinking about medical therapy and talking to them about what the underlying cause is. And the commonest medicine to use for raised endocranial pressure in this setting is acetazolamide, a carbonic anhydrous inhibitor. And I think that should be started at the point that you believe somebody has moderate papilledema, with a lot of discussion around the side effects of the medicine that we go into the article and also the fact that a lot of our patients find acetazolamide in an escalating dose challenging. There are some patients with very mild papilledema and no visual change where I might say, hey, I don't think we need to start treatment immediately, but you need to see somebody who understands your disease to talk to you about what's going on. And generally, I would try and get somebody out of the emergency investigational pathway and into a formal clinic as soon as possible. Dr Nevel: Thank you so much for that. One thing that I was wondering that we see clinically is you get a consult for a patient, maybe, who had an isolated episode of vertigo, back to their normal self, completely resolved… but incidentally, somebody ordered an MRI. And that MRI, in the report, it says partially empty sella, slight flattening of the posterior globe, concerns for increased intracranial pressure. What should we be doing with these patients who, you know, normal neurological exam, maybe we can't detect any definite papilledema on our endoscopic exam. What do you think the appropriate pathway is for those patients? Dr Mollan: I think it's really important. The more neuroimaging that we're doing, we're sort of seeing more people with signs that are we don't believe are normal. So, you've mentioned a few, the sort of partially empty sella, empty sella, tortuosity of the optic nerves, flattening of the globes, changes in transverse sinus. And we have quite a nice, again, table in the article that talks about these signs. But they have really low sensitivity for a diagnosis of raised endocranial pressure and isolation. And so, I think it's about understanding the context of which the neuroimaging has been taken, taking a history and going back and visiting that to make sure that they don't have escalating headache. And also, as you said, rechecking the eye nerves to make sure there's no papilledema. I think if you have a good examination with the direct ophthalmoscope and you determine that there's no papilledema, I would be confident to say there's no papilledema. So, I don't think they need to necessarily cry doubt. The ophthalmology offices, we certainly are having quite a few additional referrals, particularly for this, which we kind of called IIH-RAD, where patients are coming to us for this exclusion. And I think, in the intervening time, patients can get very anxious about having a sort of MRI artifact picked up that may necessarily mean a different diagnosis. So, I guess it's a little bit about reassurance, making sure we've taken the appropriate history and performed the examination. And then knowing that actually it's really a number of different signs that you need to be able to confidently diagnose raised ICP, and also the understanding that sometimes when people have these signs, if the ICP reduces, those signs remain. You know, we're learning an awful lot more about MRI imaging and what's normal, what's within normal limits. So, I think reassurance and sensible medical approach. Dr Nevel: Absolutely. In the section in your article on idiopathic intracranial hypertension, you spend a little bit of time talking about how important it is that we sensitively approach the topic of potential weight loss for those patients who are overweight. How do you approach that discussion in your clinic? Because I think it's an important part of the holistic patient care with that condition. Dr Mollan: I think this is one of the things that we've really listened to the patients about over the last number of years where we recognize that in an emergency situation, sometimes we can be quite quick to sort of say, hey, you have idiopathic endocranial hypertension and weight loss is, you know, the best treatment for the condition. And I think in those circumstances, it can be quite distressing to the patient because they feel that there's a lot of stigma attached around weight management. So, we worked with the patient group here at IIH UK to really come up with a way of a signposting to our patients that we have to be honest that there is a link, you know, a strong evidence that weight gain and body shape change can cause someone to fall into a diagnosis of IIH. And we know that weight loss is really effective with this condition. So, I think where I've learned from the patients is trying to use language that's less stigmatizing. I definitely signpost that I'm going to talk about something sensitive. So, I say I'm going to talk about something sensitive and I'm going to say, do you know that this condition is related to body shape change? And I know that if I listen to this podcast in a couple of years, I'm sure my words will have changed. And I think that's part of the process, is learning how to speak to people in an ever-changing language. And they think that sort of signpost that you're going to talk about something sensitive and you're going to talk about body shape change. And then follow up with, are you OK with me talking about this now? Is it something you want to talk about? And the vast majority of people say, yes, let's talk about it. There'll be a few people that don't want to talk about it. And I usually come in quite quickly, say, is it OK if I mention it at the next consultation? Because we have a duty of care to sort of inform our patients, but at the same time we need to take them on that journey to get them back to health, and they need to be really enlisted in that process. Dr Nevel: Yeah, I really appreciate that. These can be really difficult conversations and uncomfortable conversations to have that are really important. And you're right, we have a duty as medical providers to have these conversations or inform our patients, but the way that we approach it can really impact the way patients perceive not only their diagnosis, but the relationship that we have with our patients. And we always want that to be a positive relationship moving forward so that we can best serve our patients. Dr Mollan: I think the other thing as well is making sure that you've got good signposts to the professionals. And that's what I say, because people then say to me, well, you know, kind of what diet should I be on? What should I be doing? And I say, well, actually, I don't have professional experience with that. I'm, I'm very fortunate in my hospital, I'm able to send patients to the endocrine weight management service. I'm also able to send patients to the dietetic service. So, it's finding, really, what suits the patient. Also what's within licensing in your healthcare system to be able to provide. But not being too prescriptive, because when you spend time with weight management professionals, they'll tell you lots of different things about diets that people have championed and actually, in randomized controlled trials, they haven't been effective. I think it's that signpost really. Dr Nevel: Yeah, absolutely. So, could you talk a little bit about what's going on in research in papilledema or in this area, and what do you think is up-and-coming? Dr Mollan: I think there's so much going on. Mainly there's two parts of it. One is image analysis, and we've had some really fantastic work out of the Singapore group Bonsai looking at a machine learning decision support tool. When people take fundal pictures from a normal fundus camera, they're able to say with good certainty, is this papilledema, is this not papilledema? But more importantly, if you talk to the investigators, something that we can't tell when we look in is they're able to, with quite a high level of certainty, say, well, this is base occupying lesion, this is a venous sinus thrombosis, and this is IIH. And you know, I've looked at thousands and thousands of people's eyes and that I can't tell why that is. So, I think the area of research that is most exciting, that will help us all, is this idea about decision support tools. Where, in your emergency pathway, you're putting a fundal camera in that helps you be able to run the image, the retina, and also to try and work out possibly what's going on. I think that's where the future will go. I think we've got many sort of regulatory steps and validation and appropriate location of a learning to go on in that area. So, that's one side of the imaging. I think the other side that I'm really excited about, particularly with some of the work that we've been doing in Birmingham, is about treatment. The surgical treatments, as I talked about earlier… really, there's no high-class evidence. There's a number of different groups that have been trying to do randomized trials, looking at stenting versus shunting. They're so difficult to recruit to in terms of trials. And so, looking at other treatments that can reduce intracranial pressure. We published a small phase two study looking at exenatide, which is a glucagon-like peptide receptor agonist, and it showed in a small group of patients living with IIH that it could reduce the intracranial pressure two and a half hours, twenty-four hours, and also out to three months. And the reason why this is exciting is we would have a really good acute therapy---if it's proven in Phase III trials---for other diseases, so, traumatic brain injury where you have problems controlling ICP. And to be able to do that medically would be a huge breakthrough, I think, for patient care. Dr Nevel: Yeah, really exciting. Looking forward to seeing what comes in the future then. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today about your article. I really enjoyed learning more from you during our conversation today and from your article, which I encourage all of our listeners to please read. Lots of good information in that article. So again, today I've been interviewing Dr Susie Mollan about her article Papilledema Diagnosis and Management, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology.Please be sure to check out Continuum episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. Thank you, Susie. Dr Mollan: Thank you so much. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

The inflammatory and infectious optic neuropathies are a broad, heterogeneous, and common group of diseases producing visual loss. Although many now-distinct syndromes have been previously combined as “typical or atypical optic neuritis,” recent developments highlight the importance of precision terminology as well as an individualized evaluation and treatment approach. In this episode, Gordon Smith, MD, FAAN speaks with Eric Eggenberger, DO, MS, FAAN, author of the article “Optic Neuritis” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue. Dr. Smith is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor and chair of neurology at Kenneth and Dianne Wright Distinguished Chair in Clinical and Translational Research at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Eggenberger is a professor of ophthalmology, neurology, and neurosurgery at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. Additional Resources Read the article: Optic Neuritis Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @gordonsmithMD Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Smith: This is Dr Gordon Smith. Today I'm interviewing someone who really needs no introduction, Dr Eric Eggenberger, about his article on optic neuritis, which appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Eric, welcome to the podcast, and maybe you can introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Eggenberger: Thank you. Thanks for having me. So, my name is Eric Eggenberger. I work at Mayo Clinic Florida, and I am involved exclusively in neuro-ophthalmology. Dr Smith: I just had the pleasure, Eric, of talking yesterday with Lindsey De Lott about non-optic neuritis causes of optic neuropathy. And so, I'm going to kind of reference a little bit what I learned yesterday. She was great. I wonder if you might begin by talking a little bit about nomenclature. You talk about the need for use of precise terminology in your article. And yesterday she taught me a lot about the risk of misdiagnosis and other causes of optic neuropathy, and the two seem related. So, I wonder if you can maybe lay the foundation for our conversation by talking about terminology? Dr Eggenberger: I think that's a great point. So, we are in an era now where, instead of lumping all these different diagnoses together, we have learned to split apart some of these clinical entities. And so, I think it's really important that we focus on precise terminology and recognize that all optic neuritis is not the same. And we have very different, distinct clinical pathways for these imaging pathways, treatment pathways, for these different types of optic neuritis, whether that's MS related, whether it's MOG related or aquaporin-4 related. Dr Smith: So, I wonder maybe we can begin by just, you know, giving our listeners wisdom, pearls, and pitfalls about, how do you recognize when someone with a suspected optic neuropathy has optic neuritis versus a noninflammatory optic neuropathy? Dr Eggenberger: So, that's a really important issue because there's a lot of clinical overlap in terms of exam findings. So, for instance, in any optic neuropathy, let's say it's unilateral, you typically are going to see decreases in acuity and field and color, and you're going to see a relative afferent pupillary defect. And then it's really the context that that occurs in that helps us distinguish different disease entities. So, with optic neuritis, typically you're going to have pain. And that's oftentimes going to be in the younger populations compared to some of the other common optic neuropathies we see, like ischemic optic neuropathy, for instance. Dr Smith: Right. So maybe we can talk a little bit about, kind of, your overall diagnostic approach, right? A lot of this is, of course, based on age and context, but young people get ischemic lesions and older people can have inflammatory lesions. So, what's your overall approach to the patient you just described? Let's say it's a forty-eight-year-old woman who comes to the emergency department with subacute unilateral vision loss and there's dyschromatopsia, APD, reduced acuity. And, you know, let's just say a fairly, you know, benign-looking fundoscopic exam. What do you do to evaluate that patient? Dr Eggenberger: In that particular context, I think we're looking at other contextual clues. Is there other vascular risk factors or other things to point you in one direction or the other? One of the important parts you mentioned was the fundus exam. So, we know with ischemic optic neuropathy, 100% of the time with AIOM, you're going to see disc edema. And so, in the context of that story, we want to confirm on our exam an optic neuropathy, and then we can kind of focus on the retrobulbar courses or different types of optic neuropathies. From an exam perspective, in that particular patient we’d be looking to measure the acuity, quantify that. And in the ER, you're not going to be able to do a perfect field, but you'll get some sense of the field and how much field loss there is. And then as you mentioned, the afferent pupillary defect is critical. And we're going to get a little bit of the historical features in terms of pain. With typical retrobulbar optic neuritis, most of those patients are going to experience some pain, and usually it's pain on eye movements. And those would be the clinical things to focus on. Other exposures the patient may or may not have had, any other concomitant conditions, would all help point you in different directions, perhaps, and then we're probably on towards imaging. Dr Smith: Yeah, maybe you can talk a little bit about that? What's the appropriate use of imaging? I mean, presumably the patients, like the one I just threw out there, are pretty much all going to get neuroimaging. What's your approach to that? How do you protocol the study? What should we be looking for? Dr Eggenberger: In our clinic, we would typically be ordering an MRI orbit and brain, and each of those has a specific purpose. The orbit is going to show us the extent of the optic neuropathy. So, we're particularly looking for a longitudinally extensive optic nerve lesion or more than half of the optic nerve involved. And most patients acutely, if it isn't an “itis" situation, we'll see enhancement. And then the MR brain is going to be useful for looking for other evidence of demyelination within the central nervous system. We may at some point get down to doing an MR cord, but I think acutely it's going to be brain and orbit that most of our patients are getting. Dr Smith: Let's say that we did the scan and, sure enough, there's sort of a shorter segment, so less than half the length of the nerve region of enhancement. What's the rest of your diagnostic evaluation look like for that patient? Dr Eggenberger: So, in that particular case, we would look at the remainder of the brain. So, we're looking for other evidence of demyelination and any other contextual clues, systemically that would point you one direction or another. But with a shorter segment involved, one of the more common things we might encounter would be multiple sclerosis-related optic neuritis. Dr Smith: Would you look for aquaporin-4 and MOG in a patient with what appears to be an isolated, uncomplicated short segment optic neuritis? Dr Eggenberger: So, I think it really depends a bit on the context. I would never fault anybody for looking at MOG or an aquaporin-4 in that context because those are really treatment-altering diagnoses, but the yield in this particular case with a short segment involved and depending on the acuity and other features is probably going to be pretty low. Dr Smith: I really liked as an aside- I wasn't going to go there next, but you kind of got me thinking about it, you have a really nice section in your article. Which, all of it's great, but talking about how to manage low titer MOG antibodies. I wonder if you could talk about that because I think that's a lesson, maybe, that is transferable to a lot of other testing that we do. in terms of pre-prior probability and titer and so forth. Dr Eggenberger: Yeah, that's really an important point. So, we've seen this come up a number of times where the MOG antibody is a very good test, but in low titer it has a relatively low positive predictive value, perhaps 50%. In those cases, particularly without a classic clinical context, you have to be extremely alert for some other diagnosis that could mimic what you think is inflammatory demyelinating optic neuritis, but in fact is infectious or some other cause. Dr Smith: Yeah, super, super important and helpful. In terms of aquaporin-4, how does that compare in terms of predictive values, lower titer positive results? Dr Eggenberger: So aquaporin-4, the test has a very high specificity. So, it's quite useful if positive. You have to keep in mind there can be some false negatives, but the test otherwise is quite specific. And that is a diagnosis, you know, we never want to miss. It's a vicious disease. It tends to be a blinding disease, particularly without treatment. Bad things happen when we miss that, and we want to get on that diagnosis early and do pretty aggressive early and prophylactic treatment. Dr Smith: Your article covers not only the common causes of optic neuritis and, you know, MS, isolated optic neuritis, MOGAD NMO, you talk about a bunch of other things. I wonder, in this patient that we've been discussing, in the absence of any other historical information that seems relevant---or maybe you can define what would seem relevant---would you do other evaluation in that individual, other serologic evaluation and so forth, just in terms of diagnosis? Dr Eggenberger: In that particular case, without other red flags, I don't think I would initially. And follow-up is going to give you a lot of this context. So, you'd be on the lookout for other systemic conditions. So, if the patient had some arthropathy, if the patient had any pulmonary disease hints, if there was anything else that could lead you on a broader expedition. But I think in the context of this case, acutely in the ER, I probably wouldn't do a big lab plug for this. I probably would kind of go down the most likely road and start our treatments, and then follow that patient up. Dr Smith: Yeah, I know your article does a really great job, I think, of outlining when do you need to think about some of these less common causes. Well, can we talk about treatment, Eric? Because I want to move on to some other things. But- so, we've got a patient with isolated optic neuritis, nothing else, you know, in terms of the other antibodies we've talked about. What state-of-the-care- or, state-of-the-art treatment for that patient? Dr Eggenberger: So, the acute treatment for these inflammatory, optic neuritis-type cases is very similar Initially. High dose steroids remains kind of the standard. And then, in MS-related optic neuritis, we may or may not see a taper. So many times it's just an acute treatment of three to five days high dose. Whether that's oral or PO, we could institute either depending on the particular case. And then the taper would depend on the potential cause. So, for instance, with these antibody-driven diseases---so with MOG- or particularly with aquaporin-4---if it's a longitudinally extensive region of optic nerve involved, we tend to use a longitudinally extensive taper. And so, we use prednisone in those cases for several months while we're getting everything else set and deciding what the overall course is going to bring. Dr Smith: What about IV versus oral? There must be something about my practice. I was telling this to Lindsey. Every time on our hospital service, we seem to have at least two patients with optic neuropathies, which I always enjoy, but I find it's a little weird to admit someone who's doing just fine otherwise to the hospital with three days of IV SOLU-MEDROL. So, I'm always trying to figure out, like, how can I get this patient home? And your article had the best term I've heard in a long time, which is “SOLU smoothies.” I mean, are there other strategies that you sometimes use, other than just high-dose IV methylprednisolone? Dr Eggenberger: So, I agree with you. It's sometimes hard to admit somebody for just an IV therapy. And we'll do this as an outpatient, high-dose IV, but we'll also use high-dose orals. And in times in the past when there's been methylprednisolone shortage, we've used high-dose oral or IV dexamethasone as well. I think the IV form, although it's the gold standard, the high-dose oral forms have pretty equivalent bioavailability and are pretty tolerable in my experience. And certainly more convenient. Dr Smith: I wonder if we should switch and maybe talk a little bit about aquaporin-4, I mean, you emphasized that this is a vicious disease---I love the way you describe that---and often blinding. What updates do you have in terms of our therapeutic approach to NMO? That's been rapidly evolving of late. Dr Eggenberger: Right, so these are cases we're always going to share with neuroimmunology. And it requires kind of a multidisciplinary approach, in my opinion, for ideal or for best outcomes. And so, all of these patients are going to get put on prophylactic medications. So, this is a disease you just can't leave untreated. Bad stuff will happen for sure. And we now, fortunately, have some approved, FDA-approved medications that can positively impact the course of this disease. So, that's been a welcome addition. Dr Smith: What are the FDA-approved medications at this point for NMO? Dr Eggenberger: So, there are several at this point, and this is an area that's in growth, fortunately. And again, these are cases we're going to be sharing with our neuroimmunology colleagues. So, these are IV medications typically aimed at complement or CD19. And they all are relatively effective at quieting the course of the disease. Dr Smith: Maybe we can talk a little bit about MOG? I think that most of our listeners are probably pretty familiar with aquaporin-4 and NMO, what- maybe you could describe MOG a little bit and the therapeutic approach for patients with MOG-associated disease? Dr Eggenberger: So, MOG has been a real interesting kind of condition to learn more about. We certainly see a lot of MOG, and I'm sure we saw MOG before it was formally described, but I think we just thought it was kind of a benign, maybe monophasic MS type of presentation. But MOG tends to come in with a loss of acuity that kind of rivals aquaporin-4. So, the acuity tends to be pretty, pretty depressed, but it's very steroid-responsive. So, a lot of times these are the patients, you'll see that their vision will start to improve even when they're on the initial few days of the high-dose steroids. And many times we can get their vision back to 20/20 or very close to that. Dr Smith: And do these patients need chronic management? Dr Eggenberger: So, that's an area of controversy to some degree. About 50% of the optic neuritis MOG-related cases are going to have a relapsing course. And because the disease is steroid-responsive, many times we'll follow these patients after a first attack to see if this is the condition that’s going to declare itself to be relapsing or if this is just going to be a monophasic kind of presentation of optic neuritis. We don't have great biomarkers to separate patients who are going to be in that 50% monophasic course versus the other half. It'll be relapsing. And so, it depends on the patient. If there's somebody that's, as many of these patients are, been very steroid responsive, they get back to 20/20, we can teach them about the disease so that if they do have a relapse, we can get them high-dose steroids in a relatively rapid fashion and they're otherwise healthy, we're probably going to watch that patient. And if it's somebody that doesn't recover 100%, there's other issues with treating them with high-dose steroids potentially in the future, then we may learn more towards an earlier prophylactic approach in that patient. Dr Smith: And what would that approach look like? Is it different from NMO or using more IVIG or B cell depletion as opposed to complement inhibition, for instance? Dr Eggenberger: In MOG, we know that the B cell depletion strategies don't work as well. And so most times we're turning to IVIG, and we found that pretty effective. That's kind of our go-to at this point. Dr Smith: Eric, it's a joy talking to you and I'd love to keep going about content, but I'll refer our listeners to your outstanding article. I mean, you're such a highly regarded neuro-ophthalmologist and educator. I wonder if you could talk to us about why you've done neuro-ophthalmology, and maybe this is an opportunity for you to convince all of our great residents that are listening or students what's great about being a neuro-ophthalmologist. Dr Eggenberger: I think neuro-ophthalmology is by far the most interesting part of neurology. So, it's an area that I think a lot of general neurologists, in my view, don't get enough of in their residency. But it's kind of the essence of neurology, where in neurology you're localizing down to the millimeter and in neuro-ophthalmology,  we're localizing down to the micron level. We have several new emerging diseases like these varieties of optic neuritis we're focused on. We're learning lots about those. You get to be involved in lots of different areas of neurology. So, we'll see not just demyelinating conditions, we'll see trauma as it relates to the visual system. And we'll see tumor, and we see all different flavors, stroke, and in any piece of neurology, commonly we'll have some vision aspect that we that we get involved in. So, we see a wide variety of conditions. So, I think it's been a really exciting place to be within neurology. And it's rapidly changing at this point. We're getting new therapeutics. So, it's, I think it's a great time to be a neuro-ophthalmologist. Dr Smith: Yeah, listening to you talk and just reflecting on it, it's really true. Neuro-ophthalmology does cover the entire span of neurology, right? I'm a neuromuscular guy and we see a lot of ocular myasthenia, which is another super exciting area. But we've been talking about optic neuritis, and your article talks about infectious causes and the paraneoplastic and a whole host of things. So, you're a great advocate and salesperson for your field. You convinced me. Dr Eggenberger: Efferent neuro-ophthalmology we love, we could talk about ocular myasthenia and other aspects for another hour. And we get involved in all kinds of cases: third nerve palsies, ocular myasthenia, trauma that involves the efferent system, all different aspects. It's really a great subspecialty, and you get to see a bit of all of neurology. Dr Smith: I'm trying to remember who it was, Eric. It was an attending of mine at medical school. I went to medical school at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, and I want to say it was Manny Gomez, who was a very famous tuberous sclerosis person, who told me that neuro-ophthalmology was the most elegant specialty within neurology. That stuck with me. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Dr Eggenberger: Thank you. I appreciate it as well. Dr Smith: So again, today I've been interviewing Dr Eric Eggenberger about his really wonderful article on optic neuritis, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology. Be sure to check out Continuum audio episodes from the neuro-ophthalmology and other issues. And listeners, thank you very much for joining us today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Optic neuropathies encompass all congenital or acquired conditions affecting the optic nerve and are often a harbinger of systemic and central nervous system disorders. A systematic approach to identifying the clinical manifestations of specific optic neuropathies is imperative for directing diagnostic assessments, formulating tailored treatment regimens, and identifying broader central nervous system and systemic disorders. In this episode, Gordon Smith, MD, FAAN speaks with Lindsey De Lott, MD, MS, author of the article “Optic Neuropathies” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue. Dr. Smith is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor and chair of neurology at Kenneth and Dianne Wright Distinguished Chair in Clinical and Translational Research at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. Dr. De Lott is an assistant professor of neurology and ophthalmology at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Additional Resources Read the article: Optic Neuropathies Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @gordonsmithMD Guest: @lindseydelott Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME, subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Smith: Hello, this is Dr Gordon Smith. Today I'm interviewing Dr Lindsey De Lott about her article on optic neuropathies, which appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Lindsey, welcome to the podcast, and perhaps you can introduce yourself to our audience. Dr De Lott: Thank you, Dr Smith. My name is Lindsey De Lott and I am a neurologist and a neuro-ophthalmologist at the University of Michigan. I also serve as the section lead for the Division of Neuro-Ophthalmology, which is actually part of the ophthalmology department rather than the neurology department. And I spend a good portion of my time as a researcher in health services research, and that's now about 60% of my practice or so. Dr Smith: I'm super excited to spend some time talking with you. One, I'm a Michigan person. As we were chatting before this, I trained with Wayne Cornblath and John Trobe, and it's great to have you. I wonder if we maybe can begin- and by the way, your article is outstanding. It is such a huge topic and it was actually really fun to read, so I encourage our listeners to check it out. But you begin by talking about misdiagnosis as being a common problem in this patient population. I wonder if you can talk through why that is and if you have any pearls or pitfalls in avoiding it? Dr De Lott: Yeah, I think there's been a lot of great research looking at misdiagnosis in specific types of optic neuropathies; in particular, compressive optic neuropathies and optic neuritis. A lot of that work has come out of the group at Emory and the group at Washington University. But a lot of neuro-ophthalmologists across the country really contributed to those data. And one of the statistics that always strikes me is that, you know, for example, in patients with optic nerve sheath meningiomas, something like 70% of them are actually misdiagnosed. And a lot of those errors in diagnosis, whether it's for compressive optic neuropathy or some other type of optic neuropathy, really comes down to the way that physicians are really incorporating elements of the history in the physical. For example, in optic neuritis, we know that physicians tend to anchor pretty heavily on pain in general. And that often tends to lead them astray when optic neuritis was never the diagnosis to begin with. So, it's really overindexing on certain things and not paying attention to other features of the physical exam; for example, say presence of an afferent pupillary defect. So, I think it just really highlights the need to have a really relatively structured approach to patients that you think have an optic neuropathy when you're trying to sort of plan your diagnostic testing and your treatment. Dr Smith: I do maybe five or six weeks on our hospital service each year, and I don't know if it's just a Richmond thing, but there's always at least two people in my week who come in with an optic neuropathy or acute vision loss. How common is this in medical practice? Or neurologic practice, I should say? Dr De Lott: Optic neuropathies themselves… if you look across, unfortunately we don't have any great data that puts together all optic neuropathies and gives us an actual sort of prevalence estimate or an incidence estimate from year to year. We do have some of those data for specific types of optic neuropathies like optic neuritis and NAION, and you're probably looking around five-ish per one hundred thousand. So, these aren't that common, but at the same time they do get funneled to- often to emergency rooms and to neurologists from our ophthalmology colleagues and optometry colleagues in particular. Dr Smith: So, one other question I had before kind of diving into the topic at hand is how facile neurologists need to be in recognizing other causes of acute visual loss. I mean, we see acute visual loss as neurologists, we think optic neuropathy, right? Optic neuritis is sort of the go-to in a younger patient, and NAION in someone older. But what do neurologists need to know about other ophthalmologic causes? So, glaucoma or acute retinal disorders, for instance? Dr De Lott: Yeah, I think it's really important that neurologists are able to distinguish optic neuropathies from other causes of vision loss. And so, I would really encourage the listeners to take a look at the excellent article by Nancy Newman about vision loss in this issue where she really kind of breaks it down into vision loss that is acute and chronic and how you really think through distinguishing optic neuropathies from other causes of vision loss. But it is really important. For example, a patient with a central retinal artery occlusion may potentially be eligible for treatments. And that's very different from a patient with optic neuritis and acute vision loss. So, we want to be able to distinguish these things.  Dr Smith: So maybe we can pivot to that a little bit. Just for our listeners, our focus today is going to be on- not so much on optic neuritis, although obviously we need to talk a little bit about how we differentiate optic neuritis from non-neuritis optic neuropathies. It seems like the two most common situations we encounter are ischemic optic neuropathies and optic neuritis. Maybe you can talk a little bit about how you distinguish these two? I mean, some of it’s age, some of it’s risk factors, some of it’s exam. What's the framework, of let's say, a fifty-year-old person comes into the emergency room with acute vision loss and you're worried about an optic neuropathy? Dr De Lott: The first step whenever you are considering an optic neuropathy is just making sure that the features are present. I think, really going back to your earlier question, making sure that the patient has the features of an optic neuropathy that we expect. So, it's not only vision loss, but it's also the presence of an apparent pupillary defect in a patient with a unilateral optic neuropathy. In a person who has a bilateral optic neuropathy, that apparent pupillary defect may not be present because it is relative. So, you really would have to have asymmetric vision loss between the two eyes. They should also have impairment of their color vision, and they're probably going to have some kind of visual field defect, whether that's central scotoma or an arcuate scotoma or an altitudinal defect that really respects the horizontal meridian. So, you want to make sure that, first and foremost, you've got a patient that really meets most of those- most of those features. And then from there, we're looking at the other features on their history. How acute is the onset of the vision loss? What is the progression over time? Is there pain associated or not associated with the vision loss? What other medical issues does the patient have? And you know, one of the things you already brought up, for example, is, what's the age of the patient? So, I'm going to be much more hesitant to make a diagnosis of optic neuritis in a much older patient or a diagnosis on the other side, of ischemic optic neuropathy, in a much younger patient, unless they have really clear features that push me in that direction. Dr Smith: I wonder if maybe you could talk a little bit about features that would push you away from optic neuritis, because, I mean, people who are over fifty do get optic neuritis- Dr De Lott: They do. Dr Smith: -and people who get ischemic optic neuropathies who are younger. So, what features would push you away from optic neuritis and towards… let's be broad, just a different type of optic neuropathy? Dr De Lott: Sure. We know that most patients with optic neuritis do have pain, but that pain is accompanied---within a few days, typically---with vision loss. So, pain alone going on for a number of days without any visual symptoms or any of those other things I listed, like the afferent papillary defect, the visual field defect, would push me away from optic neuritis. But in general, yes, most optic neuritis is indeed painful. So, the presence of optic disc edema is unfortunately one of those things that an optic neuritis may be present, may not be present, but in somebody with ischemia that is anterior---and that's the most common type of ischemic optic neuropathy, would be anterior ischemic optic neuropathy---they have to have optic disc edema for us to be able to make that diagnosis, and that is a diagnosis of NAION, or nonarteritic ischemic optic neuropathy. An APD in this case, again, that's just a feature of an optic neuropathy. It doesn't really help you to distinguish, individual field defects are going to be relatively similar between them. So then in patients, I'm also looking, like I said, at their history. So, in a patient where I'm entertaining a diagnosis of ischemic optic neuropathy, I want to make sure that they have vascular risk factors or that I'm actually doing things like measuring their blood pressure in the office if they haven't seen a physician recently or checking a lipid panel, hemoglobin A1c, those kinds of things, to look for vascular risk factors. One of the other features on exam that might push me more- again, in a patient with ischemic optic neuropathy, where it might suggest ischemia over optic neuritis, would be some other features on exam like a crowded optic disc that we sometimes will see in patients with ischemic optic neuropathy. I feel like that was a bit of a convoluted answer. Dr Smith: I thought that was a great answer. And when you say crowded optic disc, that's the- is that the “disc at risk”? Dr De Lott: That is the “disk at risk,” yes. So, crowded optic disk is really a disk that is smaller than what we see in the average population, and the average cup to disk ratio is 0.3. So, I think that's where 30% of the disk should be. So, this extra wiggle room, as I sometimes will explain to my patients. Dr Smith: And then, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about more- just more about exam, right? You raised the importance of recognizing optic disc edema. Are there aspects of that disc edema that really steer you away from optic neuritis and towards ischemia-like hemorrhages or whatnot? And then a similar question about the importance of careful visual field testing? Dr De Lott: So, on the whole, optic disc edema is optic disc edema. And you can have very severe optic neuritis with hemorrhages, cotton wool spots, which is essentially just an infarction of the retinal nerve fiber layer either overlying the disc or other parts of the retina. And ischemia, you can have some of the same features. In patients who have giant cell arteritis, which is just one form of anterior ischemic optic neuropathy, patients can have a pallid optic disc edema where the optic disc is swollen and white-looking. But on the whole, swelling is swelling. So, I would caution anyone against using the features of the optic nerve swelling to make any type of, sort of, definitive kind of diagnosis. It's worth keeping in mind, but I just- I would caution against using specific features, optic nerve swelling. And then for visual field testing, there are certain patterns that sometimes can be helpful. I think as I mentioned earlier, in patients with ischemic optic neuropathy, we’ll often see an altitudinal defect where either the top half or, more commonly, the bottom half of the vision is lost. And that vision loss in the field corresponds to the area of swelling on the disk, which is really rewarding when you're actually able to see sectoral swelling of the disk. So, say the top half of the disk is swollen and you see a really dense inferior defect. And other types of optic neuropathy such as hereditary optic neuropathies, toxic and nutritional optic neuropathies, they often cause more central field loss. And in patients who have optic neuropathies from elevated intracranial pressure, so papilladema, those folks often have more subtle visual field loss in an arcuate pattern. And it's only once the optic nerves have sustained a pretty significant injury that you start to see other patterns of field loss and actual decline in visual acuity in those patients. I do think a detailed visual field assessment can often be pretty helpful as an adjunct to the rest of the exam. Dr Smith: So, we haven't talked a lot about neuroimaging, and obviously, neuroimaging is really important in patients who have optic neuritis. But how about an older patient in whom you suspect ischemic optic neuropathy? Do those patients all need a MRI scan? And if so, is it orbits and brain? How do you- how do you protocol it? Dr De Lott: You're asking such a good question, totally controversial in in some ways. And so, in patients with ischemic optic neuropathy, if you are confident in your diagnosis: the patient is over the age of fifty, they have all the vascular, you know, they have vascular risk factors. And those vascular risk factors are things like diabetes, hypertension, high blood pressure, hyperlipidemia, obstructive sleep apnea. They have a “disc at risk” in the fellow eye. They don't have pain, they don't have a cancer history. Then doing an MRI of the orbits is probably not necessary to rule out another cause. But if you aren't confident that you have all of those features, then you should absolutely do an MRI of the orbit. The MRI of the brain probably doesn't provide you with much additional information. However, if you are trying to distinguish between an ischemic optic neuropathy and, say, maybe an optic neuritis, in those patients we do recommend MRI orbits and brain imaging because the brain does provide additional information about other CNS demyelinating disorders that might be actually the cause of a patient's optic neuritis. Dr Smith: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about posterior ischemic optic neuropathy. That's much less common, and you mentioned earlier that those patients don't have optic disk edema. So, if there's a patient who has vision loss that- in a similar sort of clinical scenario that you talked about, how do you approach that and under what circumstances do we see patients who have posterior ischemic optic neuropathy? Dr De Lott: So, you're going to most often see patients with posterior ischemic optic neuropathy who, for example, have undergone a recent surgery. These are often associated with things like spinal surgeries, cardiac surgeries. And there are a number of risk factors that are associated with it. Things like blood pressure, drain surgery, the amount of blood loss, positioning of patient. And this is something that the surgeons and anesthesiologists are very sensitive to at this point in time, and many patients are often- this can be part of the normal informed consent process at this point in time since this is something that is well-recognized for specific surgeries. In those patients, though… again, unless you're really certain, for example, maybe the inpatient neurology attending and you've been asked to consult on a patient and it's very clear that they went into surgery normal, they came out of surgery with vision loss, and all the rest of the features really seem to be present. I would recommend that in those cases you think about orbital imaging, making sure you're not missing anything else. Again, unless all of the features really are present- and I think that's one of the themes, definitely, throughout this article, is really the importance of neuroimaging in helping us to distinguish between different types of optic neuropathy. Dr Smith: Yeah, I think one of the things that Eric Eggenberger talks about in his article is the need to use precise nomenclature too, which I plan on talking to him about. But I think having this very structured approach- and your article does it very well, I’ll tell our listeners who haven't seen it there's a series of really great tables in the article that outline a lot of these. I wonder, Lindsey, if we can switch to talk about arteritic optic neuropathy. Is that okay? Dr De Lott: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Dr Smith: How do you sort that out in an older patient who comes in with an ischemic optic neuropathy? Dr De Lott: Yeah. In patients who are over the age of fifty with an ischemic optic neuropathy, we always need to be thinking about giant cell arteritis. It is really a diagnosis we cannot afford to miss. If we do miss it, unfortunately, patients are likely to lose vision in their fellow eye about 1/3 to 1/2 the time. So, it is really one of those emergencies in neuro-ophthalmology and neurology. And so you want to do a thorough review systems for giant cell arteritis symptoms, things like headache, jaw claudication, myalgias, unintentional weight loss, fevers, things of that nature. You also want to check their inflammatory markers to look for evidence of an elevated ESR, elevated C-reactive protein. And then on exam, what you're going to find is that it can cause an anterior ischemic optic neuropathy, as I mentioned earlier. It can cause palette optic disc swelling. But giant cell arteritis can also cause posterior ischemic optic neuropathy. And so, it can be present without any swelling of the optic disc. And in fact, you know, you mentioned one of my mentors, John Trobe, who used to say that in a patient where you're entertaining the idea of posterior ischemic optic neuropathy, who is over the age of fifty with no optic disc swelling, you should be thinking about number one, giant cell arteritis; number two, giant cell arteritis; number three, giant cell arteritis. And so, I think that is a real take-home point is making sure that you're thinking of this diagnosis often in our patients who are over the age of fifty, have to rule it out. Dr Smith: I'll ask maybe a simple question. And presumably just about everyone who you see with a presumed ischemic optic neuropathy, even if they don't have clinical features, you at least check a sed rate. Is that true? Dr De Lott: I do. So, I do routinely check sedimentation rate and C-reactive protein. So, you need to check both. And the reason is that there are some patients who have a positive C-reactive protein but a normal sedimentation rate, so. And vice versa, although that is less common. And so both need to be checked. One other lab that sometimes can be helpful is looking at their CBC. You'll often find these patients with giant cell arteritis have elevated platelet counts. And if you can trend them over time, if you happen to have a patient that's had multiple, you'll see it sort of increasing over time. Dr Smith: I'm just thinking about how you sort things out in the middle, right? I mean, so that not all patients with GCF, sky-high sed rate and CRP…. And I'm just thinking of Dr Trobe's wisdom. So, when you're in an uncertain situation, presumably you go ahead and treat with steroids and move to biopsy. Maybe you can talk a bit about that pathway? Dr De Lott: Yeah, sure. Dr Smith: What's the definitive diagnostic process? Do you- for instance, the sed rate is sky-high, do you still get a biopsy? Dr De Lott: Yes. So, biopsy is still our gold-standard diagnosis here in the United States. I will say that is not the case in all parts of the world. In fact, many parts of Europe are moving toward using other ancillary tests in combination with labs and exam, the history, to make a definitive diagnosis of giant cell arteritis. And those tests are things like temporal artery ultrasound. We also, even though we call it temporal artery ultrasound, we actually need to image not only the temporal arteries but also the axillary arteries. The sensitivity and specificity is actually greater in those cases. And then there's high-resolution imaging of the vessels and the- both the intracranial and extracranial distributions. And both of those have shown some promise in their predictive values of patients actually having giant cell arteritis. One caution I would give to our listeners, though, is that, you know, currently in the US, temporal artery biopsy is still the gold standard. And reading the ultrasounds and the MRIs takes a really experienced radiologist. So, unless you really know the diagnostic accuracy at your institution, again, temporal artery biopsy remains the gold standard here. So, when you are considering giant cell arteritis, start the patient on steroids and- that's high dose, high dose steroids. In patients with vision loss, we use high dose intravenous methylprednisolone and then go ahead and get the biopsy. Dr Smith: Super helpful. And are there other treatments, other than steroids? Maybe how long do you keep people on steroids? And let's say you've got a patient who's, you know, diabetic or has other factors that make you want to avoid the course of steroids. Are there other options available? Dr De Lott: So, in the acute phase steroids are the only option. There is no other option. However, long term, yes, we do pretty quickly put patients on tocilizumab, which is really our first-line treatment. And I do that in conjunction with our rheumatology colleagues, who are incredibly helpful in managing and monitoring the tocilizumab for our patients. But when you're seeing the patients, you know, whether it's in the emergency room or in the hospital, those patients need steroids immediately. There are other steroid-sparing agents that have been tried, but the efficacy is not as good as tocilizumab. So, the American College of Rheumatology is really recommending tocilizumab as our first line steroid-sparing agent at this point. Dr Smith: Outstanding. So again, I will refer our listeners to your article. It's just chock-full of great stuff. This has been a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today. Dr De Lott: Thank you, Dr Smith. I really appreciate it.  Dr Smith: The pleasure has been all mine, and I know our listeners will be enjoying this as well. Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Lindsey De Lott about her article on optic neuropathies, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. I already mentioned Dr Eggenberger and I will be talking about optic neuritis, which will be a great companion to this discussion. Listeners, thank you for joining us today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Diagnosing and differentiating among the many possible localizations and causes of vision loss is an essential skill for neurologists. The approach to vision loss should include a history and examination geared toward localization, followed by a differential diagnosis based on the likely location of the pathophysiologic process.  In this episode, Aaron Berkowitz, MD, PhD, FAAN speaks with Nancy J. Newman, MD, FAAN, author of the article “Approach to Vision Loss” in the Continuum® April 2025 Neuro-ophthalmology issue.  Dr. Berkowitz is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor of neurology at the University of California San Francisco in the Department of Neurology and a neurohospitalist, general neurologist, and clinician educator at the San Francisco VA Medical Center at the San Francisco General Hospital in San Francisco, California.  Dr. Newman is a professor of ophthalmology and neurology at the Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia.  Additional Resources Read the article: Approach to Vision Loss Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum  Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME  Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com  Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme  @ContinuumAAN  Host: @AaronLBerkowitz  Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about earning CME subscribing to the journal, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Berkowitz: This is Dr Aaron Berkowitz, and today I'm interviewing Dr Nancy Newman about her article on the approach to visual loss, which she wrote with Dr Valerie Biousse. This article appears in the April 2025 Continuum issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Welcome to the podcast, Dr Newman. I know you need no introduction, but if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself to our listeners. Dr Newman: Sure. My name's Nancy Newman. I am a neurologist and neuro-ophthalmologist, professor of ophthalmology and neurology at the Emory University School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia. Dr Berkowitz: You and your colleague Dr Biousse have written a comprehensive and practical article on the approach to visual loss here. It's fantastic to have this article by two of the world's leading experts and best-known teachers in neuro-ophthalmology. And so, readers of this article will find extremely helpful flow charts, tables and very nuanced clinical discussion about how to make a bedside diagnosis of the cause of visual loss based on the history exam and ancillary testing. We'll talk today about that important topic, and excited to learn from you and for our listeners to learn from you. To begin, let's start broad. Let's say you have a patient presenting with visual loss. What's your framework for the approach to this common chief concern that has such a broad differential diagnosis of localizations and of causes? Where do you start when you hear of visual loss? How do you think about this chief concern? Dr Newman: Well, it's very fun because this is the heart of being a neurologist, isn't it? Nowhere in the nervous system is localization as important as the complaint of vision loss. And so, the key, as any neurologist knows, is to first of all figure out where the problem is. And then you can figure out what it is based on the where, because that will limit the number of possibilities. So, the visual system is quite beautiful in that regard because you really can exquisitely localize based on figuring out where things are. And that starts with the history and then goes to the exam, in particular the first localization. So, you can whittle it down to the more power-for-your-buck question is, is the vision lost in one eye or in two eyes? Because if the vision loss clearly, whether it's transient or persistent, is in only one eye, then you only have to think about the eyeball and the optic nerve on that side. So, think about that. Why would you ever get a brain MRI? I know I'm jumping ahead here, but this is the importance of localization. Because what you really want to know, once you know for sure it's in one eye, is, is it an eyeball problem---which could be anything from the cornea, the lens, the vitreous, the retina---or is it an optic nerve problem? The only caveat is that every once in a while, although we trust our patients, a patient may insist that a homonymous hemianopia, especially when it's transient, is only in the eye with the temporal defect. So that's the only caveat. But if it's in only one eye, it has to be in that side eyeball or optic nerve. And if it's in two eyes, it's either in both eyeballs or optic nerves, or it's chiasmal or retrochiasmal. So that's the initial approach and everything about the history should first be guided by that. Then you can move on to the more nuanced questions that help you with the whats. Once you have your where, you can then figure out what the whats are that fit that particular where. Dr Berkowitz: Fantastic. And your article with Dr Biousse has this very helpful framework, which you alluded to there, that first we figure out, is it monocular or binocular? And we figure out if it's a transient or fixed or permanent deficit. So, you have transient monocular, transient binocular, fixed monocular, fixed binocular. And I encourage our listeners to seek out this article where you have a table for each of those, a flow chart for each of those, that are definitely things people want to have printed out and at their desk or on their phone to use at the bedside. Very helpful. So, we won't be able to go through all of those different clinical presentations in this interview, but let's focus on monocular visual loss. As you just mentioned, this can be an eye problem or an optic nerve problem. So, this could be an ophthalmologic problem or a neurologic problem, right? And sometimes this can be hard to distinguish. So, you mentioned the importance of the history. When you hear a monocular visual loss- and with the caveat, I said you're convinced that this is a monocular visual problem and not a visual field defect that may appear. So, the patient has a monocular deficit, how do you approach the history at trying to get at whether this is an eye problem or an optic nerve problem and what the cause may be? Dr Newman: Absolutely. So, the history at that point tends not to be as helpful as the examination. My mentor used to say if you haven't figured out the answer to the problem after your history, you're in trouble, because that 90% of it is history and 10% is the exam. In the visual system, the exam actually may have even more importance than anywhere else in the neurologic examination. And we need as neurologists to not have too much hubris in this. Because there's a whole specialty on the eyeball. And the ophthalmologists, although a lot of their training is surgical training that that we don't need to have, they also have a lot of expertise in recognizing when it's not a neurologic problem, when it's not an optic neuropathy. And they have all sorts of toys and equipment that can very much help them with that. And as neurologists, we tend not to be as versed in what those toys are and how to use them. So, we have to do what we can do. Your directive thalmoscope, I wouldn't throw it in the garbage, because it's actually helpful to look at the eyeball itself, not just the back of the eye, the optic nerve and retina. And we'll come back to that, but we have in our armamentarium things we can do as neurologists without having an eye doctor's office. These include things like visual acuity and color vision, confrontation, visual fields. Although again, you have to be very humble. Sometimes you're lucky; 30% of the time it's going to show you a defect. It has to be pretty big to pick it up on confrontation fields. And then as we say, looking at the fundus. And you probably know that myself and Dr Biousse have been on somewhat of a crusade to allow the emperor's new clothes to be recognized, which is- most neurologists aren't very comfortable using the direct ophthalmoscope and aren't so comfortable, even if they can use it, seeing what they need to see. It's hard. It's really, really hard. And it's particularly hard without pupillary dilation. And technology has allowed us now with non-mydriatic cameras, cameras that are incredible, even through a small pupil can take magnificent pictures of the back of the eye. And who wouldn't rather have that? And as their cost and availability- the cost goes down and their availability goes up. These cameras should be part of every neurology office and every emergency department. And this isn't futuristic. This is happening already and will continue to happen. But over the next five years or so… well, we're transitioning into that. I think knowing what you can do with the direct ophthalmoscope is important. First of all, if you dial in plus lenses, you can't be an ophthalmologist, but you can see media opacities. If you can't see into the back of the eye, that may be the reason the patient can't see out. And then just seeing if someone has central vision loss in one eye, it's got to be localized either to the media in the axis of vision; or it's in the macula, the very center of the retina; or it's in the optic nerve. So, if you get good at looking at the optic nerve and then try to curb your excitement when you saw it and actually move a little temporally and take a look at the macula, you're looking at the two areas. Again, a lot of ophthalmologists these days don't do much looking with the naked eye. They actually do photography, and they do what's called OCT, optical coherence tomography, which especially for maculopathies, problems in the macula are showing us the pathology so beautifully, things that used to be considered subtle like central serous retinopathy and other macula. So, I think having a real healthy respect for what an eye care provider can do for you to help screen away the ophthalmic causes, it's very, very important to have a patient complaining of central vision loss, even if they have a diagnosis like multiple sclerosis, you expect that they might have an optic neuritis… they can have retinal detachments and other things also. And so, I think every one of these patients should be seen by an eye care provider as well. Dr Berkowitz: Thank you for that overview. And I feel certainly as guilty as charged here as one of many neurologists, I imagine, who wish we were much better and more comfortable with fundoscopy and being confident on what we see. But as you said, it's hard with the direct ophthalmoscope and a non-dilated exam. And it's great that, as you said, these fundus photography techniques and tools are becoming more widely available so that we can get a good look at the fundus. And then we're going to have to learn a lot more about how to interpret those images, right? If we haven't been so confident in our ability to see the fundus and analyze some of the subtle abnormalities that you and your colleagues and our ophthalmology colleagues are more familiar with. So, I appreciate you acknowledging that. And I'm glad to hear that coming down the pipeline, there are going to be some tools to help us there. So, you mentioned some of the things you do at the bedside to try to distinguish between eye and optic nerve. Could you go into those in a little bit more detail here? How do you check the visual fields? For example, some people count fingers, some people wiggle fingers, see when the patient can see. How should we be checking visual fields? And what are some of the other bedside tasks you use to decide this is probably going to end up being in the optic nerve or this seems more like an eye? Dr Newman: Of course. Again, central visual acuity is very important. If somebody is older than fifty, they clearly will need some form of reading glasses. So, keeping a set of plus three glasses from cheapo drugstore in your pocket is very helpful. Have them put on their glasses and have them read an ear card. It's one of the few things you can actually measure and examine. And so that's important. The strongest reflex in the body and I can have it duke it out with the peripheral neurologists if they want to, it's not the knee jerk, it's looking for a relative afferent pupillary defect. Extremely important for neurologists to feel comfortable with that. Remember, you cut an optic nerve, you're not going to have anisocoria. It's not going to cause a big pupil. The pupils are always equal because this is not an efferent problem, it's an afferent problem, an input problem. So basically, if the eye has been injured in the optic nerve and it can't get that information about light back into the brain, well, the endoresfol nuclei, both of them are going to reset at a bigger size. And then when you swing over and shine that light in the good optic nerve, the good eye, then the brain gets all this light and both endoresfol nuclei equally set those pupils back at a smaller size. So that's the test for the relative afferent pupillary defect. When you swing back and forth. Of course, when the light falls on the eye, that's not transmitting light as well to the brain, you're going to see the pupil dilate up. But it's not that that pupil is dilating alone. They both are getting bigger. It's an extremely powerful reflex for a unilateral or asymmetric bilateral optic neuropathy. But what you have to remember, extremely important, is, where does our optic nerve come from? Well, it comes from the retinal ganglion cells. It's the axons of the retinal ganglion cells, which is in the inner retina. And therefore inner retinal disorders such as central retinal artery occlusion, ophthalmic artery occlusion, branch retinal artery occlusion, they will also give a relative afferent pupillary defect because you're affecting the source. And this is extremely important. A retinal detachment will give a relative afferent pupillary defect. So, you can't just assume that it's optic nerve. Luckily for us, those things that also give a relative afferent pupillary defect from a retinal problem cause really bad-looking retinal disease. And you should be able to see it with your direct ophthalmoscope. And if you can't, you definitely will be able to see it with a picture, a photograph, or having an ophthalmologist or optometrist take a look for you. That's really the bedside. You mentioned confrontation visual fields. I still do them, but I am very, very aware that they are not very sensitive. And I have an extremely low threshold to- again, I have something in my office. But if I were a general neurologist, to partner with an eye care specialist who has an automated visual field perimeter in their office because it is much more likely to pick up a deficit. Confrontation fields. Just remember, one eye at a time. Never two eyes at the same time. They overlap with each other. You're going to miss something if you do two eyes open, so one eye at a time. You check their field against your field, so you better be sure your field in that eye is normal. You probably ought to have an automated perimetry test yourself at some point during your career if you're doing that. And remember that the central thirty degrees is subserved by 90% of our fibers neurologically, so really just testing in the four quadrants around fixation within the central 30% is sufficient. You can present fingers, you don't have to wiggle in the periphery unless you want to pick up a retinal detachment. Dr Berkowitz: You mentioned perimetry. You've also mentioned ocular coherence tomography, OCT, other tests. Sometimes we think about it in these cases, is MRI one of the orbits? When do you decide to pursue one or more of those tests based on your history and exam? Dr Newman: So again, it sort of depends on what's available to you, right? Most neurologists don't have a perimeter and don't have an OCT machine. I think if you're worried that you have an optic neuropathy, since we're just speaking about monocular vision loss at this point, again, these are tests that you should get at an office of an eye care specialist if you can. OCT is very helpful specifically in investigating for a macular cause of central vision loss as opposed to an optic nerve cause. It's very, very good at picking up macular problems that would be bad enough to cause a vision problem. In addition, it can give you a look at the thickness of the axons that are about to become the optic nerve. We call it the peripapillary retinal nerve fiber layer. And it actually can look at the thickness of the layer of the retinal ganglion cells without any axons on them in that central area because the axons, the nerve fiber layer, bends away from central vision. So, we can see the best we can see. And remember these are anatomical measurements. So, they will lag, for the ganglion cell layer, three to four weeks behind an injury, and for the retinal nerve fiber, layer usually about six weeks behind an entry. Whereas the functional measurements, such as visual acuity, color vision, visual fields, will be immediate on an injury. So, it's that combination of function and anatomy examination that makes you all-powerful. You're very much helped by the two together and understanding where one will be more helpful than the other. Dr Berkowitz: Let's say we've gotten to the optic nerve as our localization. Many people jump to the assumption it's the optic nerve, it's optic neuritis, because maybe that's the most common diagnosis we learn in medical school. And of course, we have to sometimes, when we're teaching our students or trainees,  say, well, actually, not all optic nerve disease, optic neuritis, we have to remember there's a broader bucket of optic neuropathy. And I remember, probably I didn't hear that term until residency and thought, oh, that's right. I learned optic neuritis. Didn't really learn any of the other causes of optic nerve pathology in medical school. And so, you sort of assume that's the only one. And so you realize, no, optic neuropathy has a differential diagnosis beyond optic neuritis. Neuritis is a common cause. So how do you think about the “what” once you've localized to the optic nerve, how do you think about that? Figure out what the cause of the optic neuropathy is? Dr Newman: Absolutely. And we've been trying to convince neuro-radiologists when they see evidence of optic nerve T2 hyperintensity, that just means damage to the optic nerve from any cause. It's just old damage, and they should not put in their read consistent with optic neuritis. But that's a pet peeve. Anyway, yes, the piece of tissue called the optic nerve can be affected by any category of pathophysiology of disease. And I always suggest that you run your categories in your head so you don't leave one out. Some are going to be more common to be bilateral involvement like toxic or metabolic causes. Others will be more likely unilateral. And so, you just run those guys. So, in my mind, my categories always are compressive-slash-infiltrative, which can be neoplastic or non-neoplastic. For example, an ophthalmic artery aneurysm pressing on an optic nerve, or a thyroid, an enlarged thyroid eye muscle pressing on the optic nerve. So, I have compressive infiltrative, which could be neoplastic or not neoplastic. I have inflammatory, which can be infectious. Some of the ones that can involve the optic nerve are syphilis, cat scratch disease. Or noninfectious, and these are usually your autoimmune such as idiopathic optic neuritis associated with multiple sclerosis, or MOG, or NMO, or even sarcoidosis and inflammation. Next category for me would be vascular, and you can have arterial versus venous in the optic nerve, probably all arterial if we're talking about causes of optic neuropathy. Or you could have arteritic versus nonarteritic with the vascular, the arteritic usually being giant cell arteritis. And the way the optic nerve circulation is, you can have an anterior ischemic optic neuropathy or a posterior ischemic optic neuropathy defined by the presence of disc edema suggesting it’s anterior, the front of the optic nerve, or not, suggesting that it's retrobulbar or posterior optic nerve. So what category am I- we mentioned toxic, metabolic nutritional. And there are many causes in those categories of optic neuropathy, usually bilateral. You can have degenerative or inherited. And there are causes of inherited optic neuropathies such as Leber hereditary optic neuropathy and dominant optic atrophy. And then there's a group I call the mechanical optic neuropathies. The obvious one is traumatic, and that can happen in any piece of tissue. And then the other two relate to the particular anatomy of the eyeball and the optic nerve, and the fact that the optic nerve is a card-carrying member of the central nervous system. So, it's not really a nerve by the way, it's a tract. Think about it. Anyway, white matter tract. It is covered by the same fluid and meninges that the rest of the brain. So, what mechanically can happen? Well, you could have an elevated intraocular pressure where that nerve inserts. That's called glaucoma, and that would affect the front of the optic nerve. Or you can have elevated intracranial pressure. And if that's transmitted along the optic nerve, it can make the front of the optic nerve swell. And we call that specifically papilledema, optic disk edema due specifically to raised intracranial pressure. We actually even can have low intraocular pressure cause something called hypotony, and that can actually even give an optic neuropathy the swelling of the optic nerve. So, these are the mechanical. And if you were to just take that list and use it for any piece of tissue anywhere, like the heart or the kidney, you can come up with your own mechanical categories for those, like pericarditis or something like that. And then all those other categories would fit. But of course, the specific causes within that pathophysiology are going to be different based on the piece of tissue that you have. In this case, the optic nerve. Dr Berkowitz: In our final moments here, we've talked a lot about the approach to monocular visual loss. I think most neurologists, once we find a visual field defect, we breathe a sigh of relief that we know we're in our home territory here, somewhere in the visual task base that we've studied very well. I'm not trying to distinguish ocular causes amongst themselves or ocular from optic nerve, which can be very challenging at the bedside. But one topic you cover in your article, which I realized I don't really have a great approach to, is transient binocular visual loss. Briefly here, since we're running out of time, what's your approach to transient binocular visual loss?  Dr Newman: We assume with transient binocular vision loss that we are not dealing with a different experience in each eye, because if you have a different experience in each eye, then you're dealing with bilateral eyeball or optic nerve. But if you're having the same experience in the two eyes, it's equal in the two eyes, then you're located. You're located, usually, retro chiasmally, or even chiasm if you have pituitary apoplexy or something. So, all of these things require imaging, and I want to take one minute to talk about that. If you are sure that you have monocular vision loss, please don't get a brain MRI without contrast. It's really useless. Get a orbital MRI with contrast and fat suppression techniques if you really want to look at the optic nerve. Now, let's say you you're convinced that this is chiasmal or retrochiasmal. Well then, we all know we want to get a brain MRI---again, with and without contrast---to look specifically where we could see something. And so, if it's persistent and you have a homonymous hemianopia, it's easy, you know where to look. Be careful though, optic track can fool you. It's such a small little piece, you may miss it on the MRI, especially in someone with MS. So really look hard. There's very few things that are homonymous hemianopias MRI negative. It may just be that you didn't look carefully enough. And as far as the transient binocular vision loss, again, remember, even if it's persistent, it has to be equal vision in the two eyes. If there's inequality, then you have a superimposed anterior visual pathway problem, meaning in front of the chiasm on the side that's worse. The most common cause of transient binocular vision loss would be a form of migraine. The visual aura of migraine usually is a positive phenomenon, but sometimes you can have a homonymous hemianopic persistent defect that then ebbs and flows and goes away. Usually there's buildup, lasts maybe fifteen minutes and then it goes away, not always followed by a headache. Other things to think of would be transient ischemic attack in the vertebra Basler system, either a homonymous hemianopia or cerebral blindness, what we call cortical blindness. It can be any degree of vision loss, complete or any degree, as long as the two eyes are equal. That should last only minutes. It should be maximum at onset. There should be no buildup the way migraine has it. And it should be gone within less than ten minutes, typically. After fifteen, that's really pushing it. And then you could have seizures. Seizures can actually be the aura of a seizure, the actual ictal phenomenon of a seizure, or a postictal, almost like a todd's paralysis after a seizure. These events are typically bright colors and flashing, and they last usually seconds or just a couple of minutes at most. So, you can probably differentiate them. And then there are the more- less common but more interesting things like hyperglycemia, non-ketonic hyperglycemia can give you transient vision loss from cerebral origin, and other less common things like that. Dr Berkowitz: Fantastic. Although we've talked about many pearls of clinical wisdom here with you today, Dr Newman, this is only a fraction of what we can find in your article with Dr Biousse. We focused here on monocular visual loss and a little bit at the end here on binocular visual loss, transient binocular visual loss. But thank you very much for your article, and thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us today. Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Nancy Newman about her article with Dr Valerie Biousse on the approach to visual loss, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on neuro-ophthalmology. Be sure to check out Continuum audio episodes from this and other issues. Thank you so much to our listeners for joining us today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

In this episode, Lyell K. Jones Jr, MD, FAAN, speaks with Valérie Biousse, MD, who served as the guest editor of the Continuum® April 2025 Epilepsy issue. They provide a preview of the issue, which publishes on April 3, 2025.   Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.  Dr. Biousse is a professor in the departments of neurology and ophthalmology, as well as the Reunette Harris Chair of Ophthalmic Research, at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia.  Additional Resources Read the issue: Neuro-ophthalmology Subscribe to Continuum®: shop.lww.com/Continuum More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com  Social Media  facebook.com/continuumcme  @ContinuumAAN  Host: @LyellJ  Guest: @vbiouss  Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio. Be sure to visit the links in the episode notes for information about subscribing to the journal, listening to verbatim recordings of the articles, and exclusive access to interviews not featured on the podcast. Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today, I'm interviewing Dr Valerie Biousse, who recently served as Continuum's guest editor for our latest issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Dr Biousse is a professor in the departments of neurology and ophthalmology at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia where she's also the Renette Harris Chair of Ophthalmic Research. Dr Biousse, welcome and thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners? Dr Biousse: In addition to what you just mentioned, I would like to highlight that I have a French accent because I was born and raised and went to medical school in France in Saint Pete Pierre, where I trained as a neurologist. And I even practiced as a stroke neurologist and a headache specialist in the big university in Paris before I decided to move to the US to pursue my passion, which was really neuro-ophthalmology. And at the time, it was impossible to get a license in the US, so I had to repeat a residency and became an ophthalmologist. And this is what led me where I am today. Dr Jones: We're fortunate that you did that. I'm glad you did all that extra work because your contributions to the field have obviously been magnificent, especially this issue, which I think is an incredibly important topic for neurologists. This is why we include it in the rotation of Continuum topics. We all know the saying that the eyes are the windows to the soul, but for neurologists they are also the windows to the brain. The only part of the CNS that's visible to us is the optic disc. I think in spite of that, I think neurologists, our readers and our listeners would acknowledge the importance of the ophthalmic exam and respect the importance of that aspect of the neurologic exam. It's an area that feels challenging to us, and many of us, even with lots of years of experience, don't always feel very comfortable with this. So, it's a really important topic and I'm glad you have edited this. And let's start off with, you know, as you've reviewed all these articles from, really, the pinnacle experts in their specific topics in neuro-ophthalmology, as you were editing this issue, Dr Biousse, what would you say is the one biggest, most important practice-changing message about neuro-ophthalmology you would want to convey to our listeners? Dr Biousse: I think its technology, advances in technology. Without any doubt. The ophthalmology world cannot evaluate a patient anymore without access to fundus photography, optical coherence tomography (OCT) of the back of the eye, not just the optic nerve, but the retina. These advantages in technology have completely changed the way we practice ophthalmology. The same applies to neuro-ophthalmology. And these techniques can really help neurologists do a basic eye exam. Dr Jones: So, let's get right into that. And I'm glad you started with that because I still feel, even though I've done it thousands of times, I still feel a little fumbly and awkward when I'm trying to examine and fundus through an undilated pupil, right? And so, this is I think where technology has helped us quantitate with, as you mentioned, OCT, but I think from an accessibility perspective, I think nonmydriatic fundus photography is a very interesting tool for neurologists and non-neurologists.  Tell us how, how does that work and how could neurologists implement that in their practice? Dr Biousse: It's a very important tool that of course neurology should be able to use every day. You can take fundus photographs of the back of the eye without dilating the pupil. The quality of the photographs is usually very good. You only have access to what we call the posterior pole of the eye, so the optic nerves and the macula and the vascular arcade. You don't see the periphery of the retina, but in neuro-ophthalmology or neurology you don't need access to the periphery of the retina, so it doesn't matter. What is remarkable nowadays is that we have access to very highly performing fundus cameras which can take pictures through very, very small pupils or in patients of all ages. You can use it on a two-year-old in a pediatric clinic. You can use it on a much older person who may have a cataract or other eye problems. And what's really new and what this issue highlights is that it's not just that we can take pictures of the back of the eye, we can also perform OCT at the same time using the same camera. So, that's really a complete game changer for neurologists. Dr Jones: And that's extremely helpful. If I'm in a neurology clinic and I would like to use this technology, how would I access that? Do I need special equipment? Can I use my smartphone and an app? How would that work in terms of getting the image but also getting an interpretation of it? Dr Biousse: It all depends on what your ultimate goal is. The fundus cameras, they are like regular cameras or like any technology that would allow you to get brain imaging. The more sophisticated, the better the quality of the image, the more expensive they are. You know, that's the difference between a three-tesla MRI and a head CT. You buy a camera that's more expensive, you're going to have access to much easier cameras and to much higher resolution of images, and therefore you're going to be much happier with the results. So, I always tell people be very careful not to get a tool that is not going to give you the quality of images you need or you may make mistakes. You basically have two big sorts of cameras. You have what we call the tabletop cameras, which is a little more bulky camera, a little more expensive camera that's sitting on the table. The table can be on wheels, so you can move the table to the patient or you can move the patient to the table. That's very convenient in a neurology clinic where most patients are outpatient. It works in the emergency department. It's more difficult at bedside in the hospital. Or you can have a handheld camera, which can be sophisticated, a device that just uses a handheld camera or, as you mentioned, a small camera that you place on your smartphone, or even better, a camera that you can attach to some of the marketed direct ophthalmoscopes. In all situations, you need to be able to transfer those images to your electronic medical records so that you can use them. You can do that with all tabletop cameras, most handheld cameras; you cannot do it with your smartphone. So that gives you an idea of what you can use. So yes, you can have a direct ophthalmoscope with a little camera mounted. This is very inexpensive. It is very useful at bedside for the neurologists who do- who see patients every day, or the resident on call. But if you really want to have a reliable tool in clinic, I always recommend that people buy a tabletop camera that's connected to the electronic medical record. Dr Jones: You know, the photos always make it so much more approachable and accessible than the keyhole view that I get with my direct ophthalmoscope in clinic. And obviously the technology and the tools are part of the story, but also, it's access to the expertise. Right? There are not many neuro-ophthalmologists in the world, and getting access to the experts is a challenge, I think, everywhere, everywhere in the world really. When you think about how technology can expand that---and here I'm getting at AI, which I hesitate to bring up because it feels like we talk about AI a lot---are there tools that you think are here now or will be coming soon that will help clinicians, including neurologists, interpret fundus photography or other neuro-ophthalmologic findings, maybe eye movements, to make that interpretation piece a little more accessible? Dr Biousse: Absolutely. It's going to happen. It's not there yet. OK? I always tell people, AI is very important and it's a big part of our future without any doubt. But to use AI you need pictures. To get pictures, you need a camera. And so I tell people, first you start with the camera, you implement the camera, you incorporate the camera in your electronic medical record. Because if you do that, then the pictures become accessible to everyone, including the ophthalmologist who’s maybe offsite and can review the pictures and provide an official interpretation of the pictures to help you. You can also transfer those pictures using secure mode of transfers and not your smartphone text application, which you really don't want to use to transfer medical information. And that's why I insist on the fact that those pictures should definitely appear in the patient's medical record. Otherwise you're going to break HIPAA laws, and that's an issue that comes up quite often. Once you have the pictures in the electronic medical record and once you have the pictures in the camera, you can do three things. You can look at them yourself. And many of my neurology colleagues are very competent at declaring that an optic nerve is normal or an optic nerve is swollen or an optic nerve is pale. And very often that's all we need. You can say, oh, I don't know about that one, and page the ophthalmologist on call, give the patient 's medical record number, have them look at the pictures, provide an interpretation, and that's where you have your answer. And this can be done in real time, live, when you're at bedside, no problem. Or you can use AI as what I call “Diagnostic A.” I always compare it as, imagine if you had a little robot neuro-ophthalmologist in your pocket that you could use at any time by just taking a picture, clicking submit on the AI app. The app will tell you never, it's normal or it's papilledema or it's pale. The app will tell you, the probability of this optic disk of being normal is 99% or the probability that this is papilledema. And when I say papilledema, I mean papilledema from rest intracranial pressure that's incredible as opposed to optic disc edema from an optic neuritis or from an ischemic optic neuropathy. And the app will tell you, the probability that this is papilledema is eighty six percent. The probability that it's normal is zero. The probability that it's another cause of disc edema is whatever. And so, depending on your probability and your brain and your own eyes, because you know how to interpret most fundus photographs, you really can make an immediate diagnosis. So that is not available for clinical use yet because the difficulty with the eye, as you know, is to have it have a deep learning algorithm cleared by the FDA. And that's a real challenge. But many research projects have shown that it can be done. It is very reliable, it works. And we know that such tools can either be either incorporated inside the camera that you use---in which case it's the camera that gives you the answer, which I don't think is the ideal situation because you have one algorithm per camera---or you have the algorithm on the Cloud and your camera immediately transfers in a secure fashion the images to the Cloud and you get your answer that way directly in your electronic medical record. We know it can be done because it happens every day for diabetic retinopathy. Dr Jones: Got it. And so, it'll expand, and obviously there has to be a period of developing trust in it, right? Once it's been validated and it becomes something that people use. And I get the sense that this isn't going to replace the expertise of the people that use these tools or people in neuro-ophthalmology clinics. It really will just augment. Is that a fair statement? Dr Biousse: Absolutely. Similar to what you get when you do an EKG. The EKG machine gives you a tentative interpretation, correct? And when the report is “it's normal,” you really can trust it, it's normal. But when it says it's not normal, this is when you look at it and you ask for a cardiology consultation. That's usually what happens. And so, I really envision such AI tools as, “it's normal,” in which case you don't need a consultation. You don't need to get an ophthalmology consultation to be sure that there is no papilledema in a patient with headache, in a patient with possible cerebrospinal fluid shunt malfunction. You don't need it because if the AI tool tells you it's normal, it's normal. When it's not normal, you still need the expertise of the ophthalmologist or the neuro-ophthalmology. The same applies to the diagnosis of eye movement. So that's a little more difficult to implement because, as you know, to have an AI algorithm, you need to have trained the algorithm with many examples. We have many examples of pathology of the back of the eyes, because that's what we do. We take pictures every day and there are databases of pictures, there are banks of pictures. But how many examples do we have of abnormal line movement in myasthenia, of videos or downbeat nystagmus? You know, even if we pulled all our collections together, we would come up with what, two hundred examples of downbeat nystagmus around the world? That's not enough to train an AI system, and that's why most of the research on eye movement right now is devoted to creating algorithm that mimic abnormal eye movements so that we can make them and then train algorithm which job will be to diagnose the abnormal eye movement. There's an extra difficult step, it's actually quite interesting. But it's going to happen. You would be able to have the patient look at the camera on the computer and get a report about “it’s normal” or “the saccades, whatever, are not normal. It's most likely an internucleosomal neuralgia” or “it is downbeat nystagmus.” And that's not, again, science fiction. There are very good groups right now working on this. Dr Jones: That's really fascinating, and that- you anticipated my next question, which is, I think neurologists understand the importance of the ocular motor exam from a localizing perspective, but it's also complex and challenging. And I think that's certainly an area of potential growth. And you make a good point that we need some data to train the models. And until we have these tools, Dr Biousse, that will sort of democratize and provide access through technology to diagnosis and, you know, ultimately management of neuro-ophthalmology disorders, we know that there are gaps in the care of these patients right now in the modern day. In your own practice, in your own work at Emory, what do you see as the biggest gap in practice in caring for these patients?  Dr Biousse: I think there is a lack of confidence amongst many neurologists regarding their ability to perform a basic eye exam and provide a reliable report of their finding. And the same applies to most ophthalmologists. And that's very interesting because we have, often, a large cohort of patients who are in between the two specialties and are getting a little bit lost. The ophthalmologist doesn't know what to do. The neurologist usually knows what to do, but he's not completely sure that it's the right thing to do. And that's where the neuro-ophthalmologist comes in. And when you have a neuro-ophthalmologist right there, it's fantastic, okay? We bridge the two specialties, and we often just translate what the ophthalmologist said to the neurologist or what the neurologist said to the ophthalmologist and suddenly everything becomes clear. But unfortunately, there are not enough neuro-ophthalmologists. There is a definite patient access issue even when there is a neuro-ophthalmologist because not only is there a coverage heterogeneity in the country and in the world, but then everybody is too busy to be able to see a patient right away. And so, this gap impairs the quality of patient care. And this is why despite all this technology, despite the future, despite AI, we teach ophthalmologists and neurologists how to do a neuro-op examination, how to use it for localization, how to use it to increase the value and the power of a good neurologic examination so that nothing is missed. And I'm taking a very simple example. Neurologists see patients with headaches all the time. The vast majority of those headaches are benign headaches. 90% of headache patients are either migraine or tension headache or analgesic abuse headaches, but they are not secondary headache that are life threatening or neurologically threatening. If the patient has papilledema, it's a huge retina that really should prompt immediate workup, immediate prevention of vision loss with the help of the ophthalmologist. And unfortunately, that's often delayed because the patients with headaches do not see eye doctors. They see their primary care providers who does not examine the back of the eye, and then they reach neurology sometimes too late. And when the neurologist is comfortable with the ophthalmoscope, then the papilledema is identified. But when the neurologist is not comfortable with the ophthalmoscope, then the patient is either misdiagnosed or sent to an eye care provider who makes the diagnosis. But there is always a delay in care. You know, most patients end up with a correct diagnosis because people know what to do. But the problem is the delay in appropriate care in those patients. And that's where technology is a complete life-changing experience. And, you know, I want to highlight that I am not blaming neurologists for not looking at the back of the eye with a direct ophthalmoscope without pharmacologic dilation of the pupil. It is not possible to do that reliably. The first thing I learned when I transitioned from a neurologist to an ophthalmologist is that no eye care provider ever attempts to look at the back of the eyes without dilating the pupils because it's too hard. Why do we ask neurologists to do it? It's really unfair, correct? And then the ophthalmoscope is such an archaic tool that gives only a very small portion of the back of the eye and is extraordinarily difficult to use. It's really not fair. And so, until we give the appropriate tools to neurologists, I don't think we should complain about neurologists not being reliable when they look at the back of the eye. It's a major issue.  Dr Jones: I appreciate you giving us some absolution there. I don't think we would ask neurologists to check reflexes but then not give them a reflex hammer, right? So maybe that's the analogy to not dilating the pupil. So, for you and your practice, in our closing minutes here, Dr Biousse, what's the most rewarding thing for you in neuro-ophthalmology? What do you find most rewarding in the care of these patients?  Dr Biousse: Well, I think the most rewarding is the specialty itself. I'm a neurologist at heart. This is where my heart belongs. What's great about those neuro-ophthalmology patients is that it is completely unpredictable. They are unpredictable. They can have anything. I am super specialized because I'm a neuro-ophthalmologist, but I am a general neurologist and I see everything in neurology. So my clinic days are fascinating. I never know what's going to happen. So that's, I think, the most rewarding part of my job as an neuro-ophthalmologist. I'm having fun every day because it's never the same, I never know what's going to happen. But at the same time, we are so useful to those patients. When you use the neuro-ophthalmologic examination, you really can provide exquisite localization of the disease. You're better than the best of the MRIs. And when you know the localization, your differential diagnosis is always right, always correct, and you can really help patients. And then I want to highlight one point that we made sure was covered in this issue of Continuum, which is the symptomatic treatment of patients who have visual disturbances from neurologic disorders. You know, a patient with chronic diplopia is really disabled. A patient with decreased vision cannot function. And being able to treat the diplopia and provide the low vision resources to those patients who do not see well is extremely important for the quality of life of our patients with neurologic disorders. When you don't walk well, if you don't see well, you fall. When you're cognitively impaired, if you don't see well, you are very cognitively impaired. It makes everything worse. When you see double, you cannot function. When you have a homonymous anopia, you should not drive. And so, there is a lot of work in the field of rehabilitation that can greatly enhance the quality of life of those patients. And that really covers the entire field of neurology and is very, very important. Dr Jones: Clearly important work, and very exciting. And your enthusiasm is contagious, Dr Biousse. I can see how much you enjoy this work. And it comes through, I think, in this interview, but I think it also comes through in the articles and the experts that you have. And I'd like to thank you again for joining us today for a great discussion of neuro-ophthalmology. I learned a lot, and hopefully our listeners did too.  Dr Biousse: Thank you very much. I really hope you enjoyed this issue. Dr Jones: Again, we've been speaking with Dr Valerie Biousse, guest editor of Continuum's most recent issue on neuro-ophthalmology. Please check it out, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Despite advances in epilepsy management, disparities and lack of inclusion of many people with epilepsy are associated with increased morbidity and mortality. Improving awareness and promoting diversity in research participation can advance treatment for underserved populations and improve trust. In this episode, Teshamae Monteith, MD, PhD, FAAN speaks Dave F. Clarke, MBBS, FAES, author of the article “Diversity and Underserved Patient Populations in Epilepsy,” in the Continuum® February 2025 Epilepsy issue. Dr. Monteith is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and an associate editor of Continuum® Audio and an associate professor of clinical neurology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in Miami, Florida. Dr. Clarke is the Kozmetsky Family Foundation Endowed Chair of Pediatric Epilepsy and Chief or Comprehensive Pediatric Epilepsy Center, Dell Medical School at the University of Texas at Austin in Austin, Texas. Additional Resources Read the article: Diversity and Underserved Patient Populations in Epilepsy Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @HeadacheMD Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith. Today I'm interviewing Dr Dave Clarke about his article on diversity and underserved patient populations in epilepsy, which appears in the February 2025 Continuum issue on epilepsy. So why don't you introduce yourself to our audience? Dr Clarke: Sure. My name is Dr Dave Clarke, as alluded to. I'm presently at the University of Texas in Austin, originating from much farther south. I'm from Antigua, but have been here for quite a while working within the field in epilepsy surgery, but more and more getting involved in outreach, access to care, and equity of healthcare in epilepsy. Dr Monteith: And how did you get involved in this kind of work? Dr Clarke: That's an amazing question. You know, I did it in a bit of a inside out fashion. I initially started working in the field and trying to get access to persons in the Caribbean that didn't have any neurological care or investigative studies, but very quickly realized that persons around the corner here in Texas and wherever I’ve worked have had the exact same problems, getting access via fiscal or otherwise epilepsy care, or geographically getting access, with so few having neurologists close at hand. Therefore, I started working both on a regional, national, and it transcended to a global scale. Dr Monteith: Wow, so you're just everywhere. Dr Clarke: Well, building bridges. I've found building bridges and helping with knowledge and garnering knowledge, you can expand your reach without actually moving, which is quite helpful. Dr Monteith: Yeah. So why don't you tell us why you think this work is so important in issues of diversity, underserved populations, and of course, access to epilepsy care? Dr Clarke: Sure, not a problem. And I think every vested person in this can give you a different spiel as to why they think it's important. So, I'll add in a few facts pertaining to access, but also tell you about why I think personally that it's not only important, but it will improve care for all and improve what you believe you could do for a patient. Because the sad thing is to have a good outcome in the United States presently, we have over three hundred epilepsy centers, but they have about eight or nine states that don't have any epilepsy centers at all. And even within states themselves, people have to travel up to eight hours, i.e., in Texas, to get adequate epilepsy care. So that's one layer. Even if you have a epilepsy center around the corner, independent of just long wait times, if you have a particular race or ethnicity, we've found out that wait may be even longer or you may be referred to a general practitioner moreso than being referred to an epilepsy center. Then you add in layers of insurance or lack thereof, which is a big concern regardless of who you are; poverty, which is a big concern; and the layers just keep adding more. Culture, etcetera, etcetera. If you could just break down some of those barriers, it has been shown quite a few years ago that once you get to an epilepsy center, you can negate some of those factors. You can actually reduce time to access and you can improve care. So, that's why I'm so passionate about this, because something could potentially be done about it. Dr Monteith: That's cool. So, it sounds like you have some strategies, some strategies for us. Dr Clarke: Indeed. And you know, this is a growth and this is a learning curve for me and will be for others. But I think on a very local, one-to-one scale, the initial strategy I would suggest is you have to be a good listener. Because we don't know how, when, where or why people are coming to us for their concerns. And in order to judge someone, if they may not have had a follow-up visit or they may not have gotten to us after five medications, the onus may not have been on that person. In other words, as we learned when we were in medical school, history is extremely important, but social history, cultural history, that's also just as important when we're trying to create bridges. The second major thing that we have to learn is we can't do this alone. So, without others collaborating with us outside of even our fields, the social worker who will engage, the community worker who will discuss the translator for language; unless you treat those persons with respect and engage with those persons to help you to mitigate problems, you'll not get very far. And then we'll talk about more, but the last thing I'll say now is they have so many organizations out there, the Institute of Medicine or the International League Against Epilepsy or members of the American Epilepsy Society, that have ways, ideas, papers, and articles that can help guide you as to how better mitigate many of these problems. Dr Monteith: Great. So, you already mentioned a lot of things. What are some things that you feel absolutely the reader should take away in reading your article? You mentioned already listening skills, the importance of interdisciplinary work, including social work, and that there are strategies that we can use to help reduce some of this access issues. But give me some of the essential points and then we'll dive in. Dr Clarke: OK. I think first and foremost we have to lay the foundation in my mind and realize what exactly is happening. If you are Native American, of African descent, Hispanic, Latinx, geographically not in a region where care can be delivered, choosing one time to epilepsy surgery may be delayed twice, three, four times that of someone of white descent. If you are within certain regions in the US where they may have eight, nine, ten, fourteen epilepsy centers, you may get to that center within two to three years. But if you're in an area where they have no centers at all, or you live in the Dakotas, it may be very difficult to get to an individual that could provide that care for you. That's very, very basic. But a few things have happened a few years ago and even more recently that can help. COVID created this groundswell of ambulatory engagement and ambulatory care. I think that can help to mitigate time to get into that person and improving access. In saying that, there are many obstacles to that, but that's what we have to work towards: that virtual engagement and virtual care. That would suggest in some instances to some persons that it will take away the one-to-one care that you may get with persons coming to you. But I guarantee that you will not lose patients because of this, because there's too big a vacuum. Only 22% of persons that should actually get to epilepsy centers actually get to epilepsy centers. So, I think we can start with that foundation, and you can go to the article and learn a lot more about what the problems are. Because if you don't know what the problems are, you can't come up with solutions. Dr Monteith: Just give us a few of the most persistent inequities and epilepsy care? Dr Clarke: Time to seeing a patient, very persistent. And that's both a disparity, a deficiency, and an inequity. And if you allow me, I'll just explain the slight but subtle difference. So, we know that time to surgery in epilepsy in persons that need epilepsy surgery can be as long as seventeen years. That's for everyone, so that's a deficiency in care. I just mentioned that some sociodemographic populations may not get the same care as someone else, and that's a disparity between one versus the other. Health equity, whether it be from NIH or any other definition, suggests that you should get equitable care between one person and the other. And that brings in not only medical, medicolegal or potential bias, that we may have one person versus the other. So, there's a breakdown as to those different layers that may occur. And in that I'm telling you what some of the potential differences are. Dr Monteith: And so, you mentioned, it comes up, race and ethnicity being a major issue as well as some of the geographic factors. How does that impact diagnosis and really trying to care for our patients? Dr Clarke: So again, I'm going to this article or going to, even. prior articles. It has been shown by many, and most recently in New Jersey, that if you're black, Hispanic, Latin- Latinx, it takes you greater than two times the time to surgery. Reduced time to surgery significantly increases morbidity. It potentially increases mortality, as has been shown by a colleague of mine presently in Calgary. And independent of that, we don't look at the other things, the other socially related things. Driving, inability to work, inability to be adequately educated, the stigma related to that in various cultures, various countries. So, that deficit not only increased the probability of having seizures, but we have to look at the umbrella as to what it does. It significantly impacts quality of life of that individual and, actually, the individuals around them. Dr Monteith: So, what are some of these drivers, and how can we address them, or at least identify them, in our clinic? Dr Clarke: That's a question that's rather difficult to answer. And not because there aren't ideas about it, but there’s actually mitigating those ideas or changing those ideas we're just presently trying to do. Although outlines have been given. So, in about 2013, the federal government suggested outlines to improve access and to reduce these inequities. And I'll just give you a few of them. One of those suggestions was related to language and having more improved and readily available translators. Something simple, and that could actually foster discussions and time to better management. Another suggestion was try to train more persons from underserved populations, persons of color. Reason being, it has been shown in the social sciences and it is known in the medical sciences that, if you speak to a person of similar culture, you tend to have a better rapport, you tend to be more compliant, and that track would move forward, and it reduces bias. Now we don't have that presently, and I'm not sure if we'll have that in the near future, although we're trying. So then, within your centers, if you have trainings on cultural sensitivity, or if you have engagements and lectures about how you can engage persons from different populations, those are just some very simple pearls that can improve care. This has been updated several times with the then-Institute of Medicine in 2012, 2013, they came out with, in my mind, a pretty amazing article---but I'm very biased---in which they outline a number of strategic initiatives that could be taken to improve research, improve clinical care, improve health equity through health services research, to move the field forward, and to improve overall care. They updated this in 2020, and it's a part of the 2030 federal initiative not only for epilepsy, but to improve overarching care. All of this is written in bits and pieces and referenced in the article. To add icing on top, the World Health Organization, through advocacy of neurological groups as well as the International League Against Epilepsy and the AES, came out with the Intersectoral Action Plan on Epilepsy and Other Neurological Diseases, which advocates for parallel improvement in overall global care. And the United States have signed on to it, and that have lit a fire to our member organizations like the American Epilepsy Society, American Academy of Neurology, and others, trying to create initiatives to address this here. I started off by saying this was difficult because, you know, we have debated epilepsy care through 1909 when the International League against Epilepsy was founded, and we have continually come up with ways to try and advance care. But this have been the most difficult and critical because there's social dynamics and social history and societal concerns that have negated us moving forward in this direction. But fortunately, I think we're moving in that direction presently. That's my hope. And the main thing we have to do is try to sustain that. Dr Monteith: So, you talked about the importance of these global initiatives, which is huge, and other sectors outside of neurology. Like for example, technology, you spoke about telemedicine. I think you were referring to telemedicine with COVID. What other technologies that are more specific to the field of epilepsy, some of these monitorings that maybe can be done? Dr Clarke: I was just going to just going to jump on that. Thank you so much for asking. Dr Monteith: I have no disclosures in this field. I think it's important and exciting to think how can we increase access and even access to monitoring some of these technologies. That might be expensive, which is another issue, but…. Dr Clarke: So, the main things in epilepsy diagnosis and management: you want to hear from the patient history, you want to see what the seizures look like, and then you want to find ways in which to monitor those seizures. Hearing from the patient, they have these questionnaires that have been out there, and this is local, regional, global, many of them standardized in English and Spanish. Our colleagues in Boston actually created quite a neat one in English and Spanish that some people are using. Ecuador has one. We have created someone- something analogous. And those questionnaires can be sent out virtually and you can retrieve them. But sometimes seeing is believing. So, video uploads of seizures, especially the cell phone, I think has been management-changing for the field of epilepsy. The thing you have to do however, is do that in a HIPAA-compliant way. And several studies are ongoing. In my mind, one of the better studies here was done on the East Coast, but another similar study, to be unnamed, but again, written out in the articles. When you go into these apps, you can actually type in a history and upload a video, but the feed is not only going to you, it may be going to the primary care physician. So, it not only helps in one way in you educating the patient, but you educate that primary care physician and they become extenders and providers. I must add here my colleagues, because we can't do without them. Arguably in some instances, some of the most important persons to refer patients, that's the APPs, the PAs and the nurse practitioners out there, that help to refer patients and share patients with us. So, that's the video uploads they're seeing. But then the other really cool part that we're doing now is the ambulatory world of EEGs. Ceribell, Zeto, to name of few, in which you could potentially put the EEG leads on persons with or without the EEG technologist wirelessly and utilize the clouds to review the EEGs. It's not perfect just yet, but that person that has to travel eight hours away from me, if I could do that and negate that travel when they don't have money to pay for travel or they have some potential legal issues or insurance-related issues and I could read the EEG, discuss with them via telemedicine their care, it actually improves access significantly. I'm going to throw in one small twist that, again, it’s not perfect. We're now trying to monitor via autonomic features, heart rate movement and others, for seizures and alert family members, parents, because although about 100,000 people may be affected with epilepsy, we're talking about 500,000 people who are also affected that are caregivers, affiliates, husbands, wives, etcetera. Just picture it: you have a child, let's say three, four years old and every time they have a seizure- or not every time, but 80% of times when they have a seizure, it alerts you via your watch or it alerts you in your room. It actually gives that child a sense of a bit more freedom. It empowers you to do something about it because you can understand here. It potentially negates significant morbidity. I won't stretch it to say SUDEP, but hopefully the time will come when actually it can prevent not only morbidity, but may prevent death. And I think that's the direction we are going in, to use technology to our benefit, but in a HIPAA-compliant way and in a judicious way in order to make sure that we not only don't overtreat, but at the end of the day, we have the patient as number one, meaning everything is vested towards that patient and do no harm. Dr Monteith: Great. One thing you had mentioned earlier was that there are even some simple approaches, efficiency approaches that we can use to try and optimize care for all in our clinics. Give me what I need to know, or do. Give me what I need to do. Dr Clarke: Yeah, I'll get personal as to what we're trying to do here, if you don't mind. The initial thing we did, we actually audited care and time to care delivery. And then we tried to figure out what we could do to improve that access and time to care, triaging, etcetera. A very, very simple thing that can be done, but you have to look at costs, is to have somebody that actually coordinates getting persons in and out of your center. If you are a neurologist that works in private practice, that could potentially be a nurse being associated directly one-and-one with one of the major centers, a third- or fourth-level center. That coordination is key. Educate your nurses about epilepsy care and what the urgent situations are because it will take away a lot of your headache and your midnight calls because they'll be able to know what to do during the day. Video uploads, as I suggested, regardless of the EMR that you have, figure out a way that a family could potentially send a video to you, because that has significantly helped in reducing investigative studies. Triaging appropriately for us to know what patients we can and cannot see. Extenders has helped me significantly, and that's where I’ll end. So, as stated, they had many neurologists and epileptologists, and utilizing appropriately trained nurse practitioners or residents, engaging with them equally, and/or social workers and coordinators, are very helpful. So hopefully that's just some low-hanging fruit that can be done to improve that care. Dr Monteith: So why don't you give us some of your major takeaways to how we can improve epilepsy care for all people? Dr Clarke: I've alluded to some already, but I like counts of threes and fives. So, I think one major thing, which in my mind is a major takeaway, is cultural sensitivity. I don't think that can go too far in improving care of persons with epilepsy. The second thing is, if you see a patient that have tried to adequately use medications and they're still having seizures, please triage them. Please send them to a third- or fourth-level epilepsy center and demand that that third- or fourth-level epilepsy center communicate with you, because that patient will eventually come back and see you. The third thing---I said three---: listen to your patients. Because those patients will actually help and tell you what is needed. And I'm not only talking about listening to them medication-wise. I know we have time constraints, but if you can somehow address some of those social needs of the patients, that will also not only improve care, but negate the multiple calls that you may get from a patient. Dr Monteith: You mentioned a lot already. This is really wonderful. But what I really want to know is what you're most hopeful about. Dr Clarke: I have grandiose hopes, I'll tell you. I'll tell you that from the beginning. My hope is when we look at this in ten years and studies are done to look at equitable care, at least when it comes to race, ethnicity, insurance, we'll be able to minimize, if not end, inequitable care. Very similar to the intersectoral action plan in epilepsy by 2030. I'll tell you something that suggests, and I think it's global and definitely regional, the plan suggests that 90% of persons with epilepsy should know about their epilepsy, 80% of persons with epilepsy should be able to receive appropriate care, and 70% of persons with epilepsy should have adequately controlled epilepsy. 90, 80, 70. If we can get close to that, that would be a significant achievement in my mind. So, when I'm chilling out in my home country on a fishing boat, reading EEGs in ten years, if I can read that, that would have been an achievement that not necessarily I would have achieved, but at least hopefully I would have played a very small part in helping to achieve. That's what I think. Dr Monteith: Awesome. Dr Clarke: I appreciate you asking me that, because I've never said it like that before. In my own mind, it actually helped with clarity. Dr Monteith: I ask great questions. Dr Clarke: There you go. Dr Monteith: Thank you so much. I really- I really appreciate your passion for this area. And the work that you do it's really important, as you mentioned, on a regional, national, and certainly on a global level, important to our patients and even some very simple concepts that we may not always think about on a day-to-day basis. Dr Clarke: Oh, I appreciate it. And you know, I'm always open to ideas. So, if others, including listeners, have ideas, please don't hesitate in reaching out. Dr Monteith: I'm sure you're going to get some messages now. Dr Clarke: Awesome. Thank you so much. Dr Monteith: Thank you. I've been interviewing Dr Dave Clarke about his article on diversity and underserved patient populations in epilepsy, which appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on epilepsy. Be sure to check out Continuum Audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Nonepileptic events are prevalent and highly disabling, and multiple pathophysiologic mechanisms for these events have been proposed. Multidisciplinary care teams enable the efficient use of individual expertise at different treatment stages to address presentation, risk factors, and comorbidities.   In this episode, Kait Nevel, MD, speaks with Adriana C. Bermeo-Ovalle, MD, an author of the article “A Multidisciplinary Approach to Nonepileptic Events,” in the Continuum® February 2025 Epilepsy issue. Dr. Nevel is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a neurologist and neuro-oncologist at Indiana University School of Medicine in Indianapolis, Indiana. Dr. Bermeo-Ovalle is a professor and vice-chair for Faculty Affairs in the Department of Neurological Sciences at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, Illinois. Additional Resources Read the article: A Multidisciplinary Approach to Nonepileptic Events Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @IUneurodocmom Full episode transcript available here Dr. Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME. Dr Nevel: Hello, this is Dr Kait Nevel. Today I'm interviewing Dr Adriana Bermeo about her article on a multidisciplinary approach to nonepileptic events, which she wrote with Dr Victor Petron. This article appears in the February 2025 Continuum issue on epilepsy. Welcome to the podcast, and please introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: Hello Dr Neville, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me. My name is Adriana Bermeo and I'm an adult epileptologist at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, and I am also the codirector of the NEST clinic, which is a treatment clinic for patients with nonepileptic seizures within our level four epilepsy center. Dr Nevel: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for being here, and I can't wait to talk to you about your article and learn a little bit about NEST, maybe, during our conversation, and how you approach things. To start us off talking about your article today, could you share with us what you think is the most important takeaway from your article for the practicing neurologist? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: Wonderful. There's some messages that I would like people to get from working with patients with functional neurologic disorders in general. The first one is that functional neurologic disorders are very common in presentation in the neurologic clinic, almost no matter what your practice of self-specialty care is. The second is that for people who treat patients primarily with seizures or epilepsy, they account for between 5 to 10% of our patients in the clinic, but about 30% of our patients in our epilepsy monitoring unit because the seizures typically do not respond to anti-seizure medication management. Also, that in order to diagnose them, you don't need to have a neuropsychological stress already be available for the patient or the clinician. And the most important thing is that there are available treatments for these patients and that there are options that we can offer them for them to have less seizures and to be more integrated to whatever activities they want to get integrated. Dr Nevel: Wonderful. What do you think a practicing neurologist might find surprising after reading your article? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: I think still many neurologists feel very hopeless when they see patients with these conditions. They do not have very good answers right away for the patients, which is frustrating for the neurologist. And they don't think there's too much they can do to help them other than send them somewhere else, which is very difficult for the neurologist and is crushing to the patients to see these doctors that they're hoping to find answers to and then just find that there's not much to do. But what I want neurologists to know is that we are making strides in our understanding of the condition and that there are effective treatments available. And I hope that after reading this and engaging with this conversation, they will feel curious, even hopeful when they see the next patient in the clinic. Dr Nevel: Yeah, absolutely. I find the history of nonepileptic seizures really interesting and I enjoyed that part of your article. How has our understanding of nonepileptic seizures evolved over the centuries, and how does our current understanding of nonepileptic seizures inform the terminology that we use? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: Yeah. The way we name things and the way we offer treatment goes along to how we understand things. So, the functional seizures and epileptic seizures were understood in ancient times as possession from the spirits or the demons or the gods, and then treatments were offered to those kind of influences and that continues to happen with functional seizures. So, we go through the era when this was thought to be a women-only condition that was stemming from their reproductive organs and then treatments accordingly were presented. And later on with Charcot and then Freud, they evolved to even conversion disorders, which is one understanding the most conversion disorders, which is one of the frameworks where this condition has been treated with psychotherapy, psychoanalytic psychotherapy. And in our current understanding, we understand functional neurologic disorders in general as a more like a connection, communication network disorder, between areas of the brain that modulate emotional processing and movement control. And therefore, our approach these days is much more geared towards rehabilitation. You know, I think that's the evolution of thinking in many different areas. And as we learn more, we will be acquiring more tools to help our patients. Dr Nevel: Yeah, great. Thanks so much for that answer. Just reading the historical information that you have in your article, you can imagine a lot of stigma with this diagnosis too over time, and that- I think that that's lessening. But I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit. How do we approach that with our patients and loved ones, any stigma that they might feel or perceive from being diagnosed with nonepileptic seizures? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: Thank you for asking that question. Stigma is actually an important problem even for people living with epilepsy. There's still a lot of misunderstanding of what epilepsy is and how it affects people, and that people living with epilepsy can live normal, healthy lives and do everything they want to do with appropriate treatment. And if a stigma is still a problem with epilepsy, it is a huge problem for patients living with functional neurologic symptoms in general, but particularly with functional seizures or nonepileptic seizures. Because the stigma in this population is even perpetuated by the very people who are supposed to help them: physicians, primary care doctors, emergency room doctors. Unfortunately, the new understanding of this condition has not gotten to everybody. And these patients are often even blamed for their symptoms and for the consequences of their symptoms and of their seizures in their family members, in their job environment, in their community. Living with that is really, really crushing, right? Even people talk about, a lot about malingering. They come back about secondary gain. I can tell you the patients I see with functional seizures gain nothing from having this condition. They lose, often, a lot. They lose employment, they lose ability to drive. They lose their agency and their ability to function normally in society. I do think that the fight- the fighting of stigma is one that we should do starting from within, starting from the healthcare community into our understanding of what these patients go through and what is causing their symptoms and what can we do to help them. So there's a lot of good work to be done. Dr Nevel: Absolutely. And it starts, like you said, with educating everybody more about nonepileptic seizures and why this happens. The neurobiology, neurophysiology of it that you outlined so nicely in your article, I'm going to encourage the listeners to look at Figure 1 and 4 for some really nice visualization of these really complex things that we're learning a lot about now. And so, if you don't mind for our listeners, kind of going over some of the neurobiology and neurophysiology of nonepileptic seizures and what we're learning about it. Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: Our understanding of the pathophysiology of functional neurologic seizure disorder is in its infancy at this point. The neurobiological processes that integrate emotional regulation and our responses to it, both to internal stimuli and to external stimuli and how they affect our ability to have control over our movement---it’s actually amazing that we as neurologists know so little about these very complex processes that the brain do, right? And for many of us this is the reason why we're in neurology, right, to be at the forefront of this understanding of our brain. So, this is in that realm. It is interesting what we have learned, but it's amazing all that we have to learn. There is the clear relationship between risk factors. So, we know patients with functional neurologic symptom disorder and with functional seizures, particularly in many different places in the world with many different beliefs, relationship to their body, to their expression of their body, have this condition no matter how different they are. And also, we know that they have commonalities. For example, traumatic experiences that are usually either very strong traumatic experiences or very pervasive traumatic experiences or recurrent over time of different quality. So, we are in the process of understanding how these traumatic experiences actually inform brain connectivity and brain development that result in this lack of connections between brain areas and the expression of them, and that result in this kind of disorder. I wish I can tell you more about it or that I would understand more about it, but I am just grateful for the work that has been done so that we can understand more and therefore have more to offer to these patients and their families and their communities that are support. Dr Nevel: Yeah, absolutely. That's always the key, and just really exciting that we're starting to understand this better so that we can hopefully treat it better and inform our patients better---and ourselves. Can you talk to us a little bit about the multidisciplinary team approach and taking care of patients with nonepileptic seizures? Who's involved, what does best practice model look like? You have a clinic there, obviously; if you could share with us how your clinic runs in the multidisciplinary approach for care of these patients? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: The usual experience of patients dealing with functional seizures, because this is a condition that has neurological symptoms and psychiatric symptoms, is that they go to the neurologist and the neurologist does not feel sufficiently able to manage all the psychiatric comorbidities of the condition. So, the patient is sent to psychiatry. The psychiatry really finds themselves very hopeless into handling seizures, which is definitely not their area of expertise, and these patients then being- “ping-ponging” from one to the other, or they are eventually sent to psychotherapy and the psychotherapist doesn't know what they're dealing with. So, we have found with- and we didn't come up with this. We had wonderful support from other institutions who have done- been doing this for a longer time. That bringing all of this specialty together and kind of situating ourselves around the patient so that we can communicate our questions and our discrepancies and our decision between who takes care of what without putting that burden on the patient is the best treatment not only for the patient, who finally feels welcome and not burden, but actually for the team. So that the psychiatrist and the neurologist support the psychotherapist who does the psychotherapy, rehabilitation, mind the program. And we also have the support and the involvement of neuropsychology. So, we have a psychiatrist, a neurologist, social worker, psychotherapist and neuropsychology colleagues. And together we look at the patient from everywhere and we support each other in the treatment of the patient, keeping the patient in the middle and the interest of the patient in the middle. And we have found that that approach has helped our patients the best, but more importantly, makes our job sustainable so that none of us is overburdened with one aspect of the care of the patient and we feel supported from the instances that is not our most comfortable area. So that is one model to do it. There's other models how to do it, but definitely the interdisciplinary care is the way to go so far for the care of patients with functional neurologic symptom disorders and with functional seizures or nonepileptic seizures in particular. Dr Nevel: Yeah, I can see that, that everybody brings their unique expertise and then doesn't feel like they're practicing outside their, like you said, comfort zone or scope of practice. In these clinics---or maybe this happens before the patient gets to this multidisciplinary team---when you've established a diagnosis of nonepileptic seizures, what's your personal approach or style in terms of how you communicate that with the patient and their loved ones? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: It is important to bring this diagnosis in a positive term. You know, unfortunately the terminology question is still out and there's a lot of teams very invested into how to better characterize this condition and how to- being told that you don't have something is maybe not that satisfying for patients. So, we are still working on that, but we do deliver the diagnosis in positive terms. Like, this is what you have. It's a common condition. It’s shared by this many other people in the world. It's a neuropsychiatric disorder and that's why we need the joint or collaborative care from neurology and psychiatry. We know the risk factors and these are the risk factors. You don't have to have all of them in order to have this condition. These are the reasons why we think this is the condition you have. There is coexisting epilepsy and functional seizures as well. We will explore that possibility and if we get to that conclusion, we will treat these two conditions independently and we- our team is able to treat both of them. And we give them the numbers of our own clinic and other similar clinics. And with that we hope that they will be able to get the seizures under better control and back to whatever is important to them. I tell my trainees and my patients that my goals of care for patients with functional seizures are the same as my patients with epileptic seizures, meaning less seizures, less disability, less medications, less side effects, less burden of the disease. And when we communicate it in that way, patients are very, very open and receptive. Dr Nevel: Right. What do you think is a mistake to avoid? I don't know if “mistake” is necessarily the right word, but what's something that we should avoid when evaluating or managing patients with nonepileptic seizures? What’s something that you see sometimes, maybe, that you think, we should do that differently? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: I think the opportunity of engaging with these patients is probably the hardest one. Because neurologists have the credibility, they have the relationship, they have- even if they don't have a multi-disciplinary team all sitting in one room, they probably have some of the pieces of this puzzle that they can bring together by collaborating. So, I think that missing the opportunity, telling the patient, this is not what I do or this is not something that belongs to me, you need to go to a mental health provider only, I think is the hardest one and the most disheartening for patients because our patients come to us just like all patients, with hopes and with some information to share with us so that we can help them make sense of it and have a better way forward. We as neurologists know very well that we don't have an answer to all our patients, and we don't offer zero seizures to any of our patients, right? We offer our collaborative work to understand what is going on and a commitment to walk in the right direction so that we are better every day. And I do think wholeheartedly that that is something that we can offer to patients with functional seizures almost in any environment. Dr Nevel: Yeah, absolutely. And using that multidisciplinary approach and being there with your patient, moving forward in a longitudinal fashion, I can see how that's so important. What do you find most challenging and what do you find most rewarding about caring for patients with nonepileptic seizures? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: The thing that I find more challenging are the systemic barriers that the system still places. We discuss with the patients, what is the right time to go to the emergency room or not? Because the emergency room may be a triggering environment for patients with functional seizures and it may be a place where not everybody is necessarily attuned to have this conversation. Having said that, I never tell any of my patients not to go to the emergency room because I don't know what's happening with them. As a matter of fact, we're getting a lot of information on high mortality rates in patients with functional seizures, and it’s not because of suicide and is probably not related to the seizure. Maybe this is---you know, this is speculation on my part---that is because they get to more severe conditions in other things that are not the functional seizures because they just experienced the healthcare system as very hostile because we are very in many instances. So, navigating that is a little bit difficult, and I try to tell them to have the doctors call me so that I can frame it in a different way and still be there for them. But I can tell you this clinic is the most rewarding clinic of all my clinical activities. And I love with all my heart being an epileptologist and seeing my patients with epilepsy. But the number of times my patients with functional seizures say, nobody had ever explained this to me, nobody had ever validated my experience in front of my family so that I'm not- like, feel guilty myself for having this episode, I can't tell you how many times. And obviously patients who come to the nonepileptic seizure clinic already know that they come to the nonepileptic seizure clinic, so that- you can say it's a selection of patients that are already educated in this condition to come to the clinic. But I would love everybody to know managing this population can be enormously, enormously satisfying and rewarding. Dr Nevel: Especially for, I imagine, patients who have been in and out of the ER, in and out of the hospital, or seen multiple providers and make their way to you. And you're able to explain it in a way that makes sense and hopefully reduces some of that stigma maybe that they have been feeling. Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: And along with that, iatrogenic interventions, unnecessary intubations, unnecessary ICUs; like, so much. And I think, I have no superpower to do that other than understanding this condition in a different way. And by I, I mean all the providers, because I'm not alone in this. There's many, many people doing excellent work in this state. And we just need to be more. Dr Nevel: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So, on that note, what's next in research, or what do you think will be the next big thing? What's on the horizon in this area? Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: I think the community in the functional neurologic disorder community is really hopeful that more understanding into the neurobiology of this condition will bring more people over and more neurologists willing to take it on. There was an invitation from the NIH, I think, about four or five years ago to submit proposals for research in this area in particular. So, all of those studies must be ongoing. I'm much more a clinician than a researcher myself, but I am looking forward to what all of that is going to mean for our patients. And for- I think there's other opportunities in that further understanding of the clinical manifestations of many other conditions, and for our understanding of our relationship with our patients. I feel we are more attuned to align with a disease that, when the experience of the patient- and with a disease like this, a condition like this one, we have to engage with the personal experience of the patient. What I mean by that is that we are more likely to say,  I'm an epileptologist, I'm an MS doctor, you know, and we engage with that condition. This condition, like, just makes us engaging with the symptom and with the experience of the person. And I think that's a different frame that is real and rounded into the relationship with our patients. So, I think there's so much that we can learn that can change practice in the future. Dr Nevel: Yeah. And as your article, you know, outlines, and you've outlined today during our discussion, that- how important this is for the future, that we treat these patients and help them as much as we can, that comes with understanding the condition better, because wow, I was really surprised reading your article. The mortality associated with this, the healthcare costs, how many people it affects, was just very shocking to me. So, I mean, this is a really important topic, obviously, and something that we can continue to do better in. Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. It's been really great talking to you today. Dr Bermeo-Ovalle: Thank you, Katie, I appreciate it too. Dr Nevel: So again, today I've been interviewing Dr Adriana Bermeo about her article on a multidisciplinary approach to nonepileptic events, which she wrote with Dr Victor Petron. This article appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on epilepsy. Be sure to check out Continuum audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today.  Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use the link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Many patients with epilepsy are unable to acheive optimal seizure control with medical therapy. Palliative surgical procedures, neurostimulation devices, and other nonpharmalogical treatments can lead to a meaningful reduction in seizures and improved outcomes. In this episode, Teshamae Monteith, MD FAAN, speaks with Daniel Friedman, MD, MSc, author of the article “Surgical Treatments, Devices, and Nonmedical Management of Epilepsy,” in the Continuum® February 2025 Epilepsy issue. Dr. Montieth is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and an associate editor of Continuum® Audio and an associate professor of clinical neurology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine in Miami, Florida. Dr. Friedman is a professor (clinical) of neurology at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and Director of NYU Langone Comprehensive Epilepsy Center at NYU Langone Health in New York, New York. Additional Resources Read the article: Surgical Treatments, Devices, and Nonmedical Management of Epilepsy Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @headacheMD Guest: @dfriedman36  Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum Journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith. Today, I'm interviewing Dr Daniel Friedman about his article on surgical treatments, devices, tools, and non-medication management of epilepsy, which appears in the February 2025 Continuum issue on epilepsy. Welcome to the podcast. How are you? Dr Friedman: I'm well, how are you? Dr Monteith: Thank you for your article. Dr Friedman: Thank you for the opportunity to talk today. Dr Monteith: Why don't you introduce yourself? Dr Friedman: So yeah, so I'm Dan Friedman. I am a professor of neurology here at NYU Grossman School of Medicine and I am the director of the NYU Comprehensive Epilepsy Center. I'm primarily an adult neurologist and I treat teens and adults with hard- difficult-to-treat epilepsy, including surgical treatments for epilepsy. Dr Monteith: And I know you see a lot of patients because I did my residency there. And so, when you graduate, you get a lot of it, like I think many, many residents. What inspired you to choose epilepsy as a profession? Dr Friedman: I came to neurology through my interest in neuroscience. I was a neuroscience undergraduate. I was very interested in the brain and brain function. Particularly, I was interested in how neurons communicate and organize to entrain and rhythms and that encode information. And through that interest and through my experiences in the laboratory, I actually became interested in how they do that in pathological circumstances like seizures. And so, I started reading about epilepsy, and then when I started seeing patients with epilepsy, you know, I decided this is the specialty for me for a lot of reasons. One is it combines inpatient and outpatient care. You get to establish long-term relationships with patients. For many of my patients, I'm probably the doctor that they see most often. You see people across the lifespan. And what I'm going to talk about today is for some people, you actually get to cure their disease, which at the time I was coming into neurology was something pretty rare. Dr Monteith: Yeah, that's great. Why don't you tell us, what were you thinking when you started writing the article? What did you set out to do? Dr Friedman: What I really wanted to do is to educate neurologists out there about the options that they have for their patients with epilepsy, especially those with difficult-to-treat or drug-resistant epilepsy, and give them the tools to communicate those options. Especially for them to understand the rationale, why we choose the interventions that we do as epileptologists, how to appropriately refer patients and have them be partners in that discussion with patients and families. One of the things that we have known for a long time is that the time to referral for things like epilepsy surgery is too long. You know, the average patient with drug resistant epilepsy who undergoes epilepsy surgery waits about twenty years. And for patients who could have curative therapy, you know, become seizure free, that's a lot of life years lost. If we can get patients to that potentially life-altering therapy earlier, that'd be great. Dr Monteith: Yeah, that is really impactful as you think about it. So why don't you tell us what the essential points of your article? Dr Friedman: The central point of my article is really that when patients have drug-resistant epilepsy, which means that our available anti-seizure medicines are not controlling their seizures to the degree that they need, there are other treatment options. Some of those are what we call curative, which means that they could stop their seizures entirely; and some of them are palliative, they could reduce the frequency or severity of seizures and improve quality of life and other outcomes. The other thing that I wanted to highlight was, in addition to these types of therapies, there are other tools we have at our disposal that can improve the quality of life and safety of our patients with epilepsy, including devices for seizure monitoring. Dr Monteith: And how do you define drug-resistant epilepsy? I feel like that could be a moving target. Dr Friedman: The International League Against Epilepsy actually set out to define it about a decade ago, and they defined it as patients who fail at least two appropriately selected anti-seizure medicines due to lack of efficacy. Then they're still having ongoing seizures. What does that mean? So, that means that the medicine that was chosen was appropriate for the type of seizures that they have, whether it's focal or generalized, and that it didn't work because of a lack of efficacy and not because of side effects. And we know from multiple studies that once patients fail two medications, the likelihood that the third, fourth, fifth, etcetera, medicine will control their seizures becomes smaller and smaller. It's not impossible, but the rates fall below five percent. And so we call those patients drug-resistant. Dr Monteith: So, it sounds like despite newer therapies, really things haven't changed in ten years. Dr Friedman: Yeah, unfortunately, at least when the concept was first investigated back in 2000 by Quan and Brody, they found that a third of patients were drug-resistant. When they went back in the mid-2010s to relook at these patients, despite the introduction of many new medications, the rate of patients who were drug-resistant was essentially unchanged. There may be therapies that are emerging or in development that may have better odds, but right now we don't really understand what makes people drug resistant and how we can target that. Dr Monteith: But you do raise a good point that this is about efficacy and not tolerability. And at least for some of the newer medications, they're better tolerated. If you stop the medicine because you had some side effect, that might change how that person has classified better-tolerated treatments. Dr Friedman: It's true. And better-tolerated treatments, you can potentially use higher doses. One of the things that is not in the definition of drug-resistant epilepsy, but as a practicing neurologist, we all know, is that the patients have to take the medicine for it to be effective. And unfortunately, they have to take it every day. And if the medicine makes them feel bad, they may choose not to take it, present to you as drug-resistant, when in reality they may be drug-sensitive if you got them on medicine that doesn't make them feel bad. Dr Monteith: So why don't we talk about patients that are ideal candidates for epilepsy surgery? Dr Friedman: The ideal candidates for epilepsy surgery… and I'll start by talking about curative epilepsy surgery, where the goal of the surgery is to make patients seizure-free. The best candidates are patients who have lesional epilepsy, meaning that there is a visible MRI abnormality like a focal cortical dysplasia, hippocampus sclerosis, cavernoma in a part of the brain that is safe to resect, non-eloquent, and where you can safely perform a wide margin of resection around that lesion. It helps if they have few or no generalized tonic-clonic seizures and a shorter duration of epilepsy. So the ideal patient, the patient that if they came to my office, I would say you should get surgery right now, are patients with non-dominant temporal lobe epilepsy of a few years’ duration. So as soon as they've shown that they're not responding to two medicines, those are the ideal patients to say, you would have the most benefit and the least risk from epilepsy surgery. We know from studies that patients with temporal lobe epilepsy do a little better with surgery. We know patients who have a visible lesion on MRI do better with epilepsy surgery. We know that patients who have infrequent secondarily generalized seizures do better. But all patients with drug-resistant epilepsy should be considered for some form of surgery because even if they're not candidates for a curative surgery, there may be some palliative options, whether it's surgical resections that lessen the severity of their seizures or neurostimulation devices that reduce the frequency and severity of seizures. Ideal candidates, the ones that you would push through sooner rather than later, are those who have the likelihood of the best outcomes and the least risk of neurocognitive decline. Dr Monteith: So, you mentioned that there may be other candidates that still benefit, although maybe not ideal. You mentioned neuromodulation. What other interventions are available? Dr Friedman: For patients who are not candidates for resective surgery, there are several neurostimulation options. There's vagus nerve stimulation, which has been around the longest. It is a device that is implanted in- under the skin near the clavicle and has a lead that goes to the left vagus nerve and delivers stimulation, electrical stimulation to the nerve. For reasons we don't fully understand, it can reduce the both the frequency and severity of seizures. Seldom does it make people seizure free, but the reduction in seizure frequency for many patients is associated with improved quality of life, reduced risk of injury, and even reduced rates of SUDEP. We also have two intracranial neurostimulation devices we use for epilepsy. One is the responsive neurostimulator. So, this is a device that- it has leads that are implanted directly into the seizure focus and sense electrocortical brain activity and deliver electrical stimulation to attempt to abort abnormal brain activity. So functioning kind of like a cardiac defibrillator for the heart, but for seizures in the brain. And because these devices have two leads, they can be used to treat people with more than one seizure focus---so up to two---or be used in patients who are not candidates for resection because their seizure focus is in language cortex, motor cortex, things that would be unable to resect. And the RNS has somewhat better efficacy in terms of percent reduction in seizures compared to the VNS, but obviously because it's an intracranial device, it's also a little riskier. It has more potential for neurosurgical adverse effects. There's also a deep brain stimulator for epilepsies, the same exact device that we use to treat movement disorders. We can implant in the thalamus, in either the anterior nucleus of the thalamus or now, for some patients, into the central median nucleus of the thalamus, and deliver open loop stimulation to treat epilepsy and reduce the frequency and severity of seizures as well. Unlike the RNS, you don't have to localize the seizure focus, so you don't need to know exactly where the seizures are coming from. And you could treat patients with multifocal epilepsy with seizures coming from more than two locations or even generalized seizures. Dr Monteith: So, it sounds like there are a lot of options available to patients. I think one of the things I find challenging is when we have patients that may have some cognitive dysfunction, especially in the hospital, and they've had some seizures that are very obvious, but then there are these, maybe, events that you wonder are seizures. So, what is the utility of some of these seizure detection devices? Dr Friedman: The development of seizure detection devices started out primarily with the observation that a majority of cases of sudden unexpected death and epilepsy, or SUDEP, occurred following tonic-clonic seizures. And there was a need to be able to monitor for convulsive seizures, especially that occur at night when people were otherwise unattended. And so, the first generation of devices that were developed came on the market, essentially detected convulsive seizures, and they alerted caregivers nearby who are able to come to the bedside, provide basic seizure first aid, turn people on the side. And theoretically all this---this hasn't been shown in studies---prevents SUDEP. And so, the ones that are currently available on the market are focused on the detection of convulsive seizures, mostly generalized tonic-clonic seizures, but some devices can also detect other seizures with very prominent motor components. What we don't have yet available to us, and what people are working on, are devices that detect nonconvulsive seizures. We know that patients who have focal impaired aware seizures are often amnestic for their seizures. They don't know they had a seizure if family members aren't there to observe them. They may never report them, which makes treating these patients very difficult. How do you quantify disease burden in your headache patients, for instance? You say, how many headache days did you have since we last met in the clinic? Your patients will be able to report on their calendar, this many days. Well, imagine if the patients had no awareness of whether or not they had a headache day. You wouldn't know if your therapy is working or not. In epilepsy, we need those types of devices which can tell us whether patients are having seizures they're unaware of, and that may be more subtle than convulsions. Dr Monteith: Oh, that'd be great for headache, too. You just gave me an idea, but that's the next podcast. So, you mentioned SUDEP, really important. How good are surgical interventions at reducing what we would think the prevalence of SUDEP? Dr Friedman: For me that is one of the primary motivations for epilepsy surgery in patients who are drug-resistant, because we know that if patients who are candidates for epilepsy surgery have high SUDEP rates. Estimates range from six to nine per thousand patients per year. If surgery is successful, their mortality rates go down to the general population level. It literally can be lifesaving for some patients, especially when you're talking about curative epilepsy surgery. But we also know that the biggest driver for SUDEP risk is tonic-clonic seizures and the frequency of those tonic-clonic seizures. So even our palliative interventions, which can reduce the frequency and severity of seizures, may also reduce the risk of SUDEP. So, we know in study- observational studies of patients with VNS and with RNS, for instance, the rates of SUDEP in patients treated with those devices are lower than expected for the drug-resistant epilepsy population. Dr Monteith: Let's talk a little bit about some of these prediction models. And you have a lot of great work in your article, so I don't want to get into all the details, but how do you use that in the real world? Do you communicate that with patients? How do you approach these prediction factors? Dr Friedman: There are two places where, I think, clinical prediction tools for epilepsy surgery have a role. One is, for me, in my clinic where I'm talking to patients about the risks and benefits for surgery, right? You want to be able to accurately communicate the likelihood that the surgery is going to give you the desired outcome. So patients and their families can make educated decisions, be weighing the risks and benefits. I think it's important to be realistic with patients because surgery, like- you know, any surgery is not without risk, both acute risks and long-term risks. You're removing part of the brain, and, you know, every part of the brain is important. That's where I use prediction tools. But I think it's also important for the general neurologist, especially trying to triage which patients you are going to be aggressive with referring to a comprehensive epilepsy center for evaluation. Where you may use your limited time and capital with patients to counsel them on surgical treatments. Where a healthcare system with limited resources prioritizes patients. So, there's a significant need for having prediction tools that only take the input that a general neurologist seeing a patient in the clinic would have at hand. You know, the history, an MRI, an interictal EEG. Dr Monteith: I guess part of that prediction model includes adverse outcomes that you're communicating as well. Dr Friedman: Certainly, for me, when I'm discussing surgery for the patient in front of me, I will use prediction models for adverse outcomes as well that are informed by the kind of surgery we're proposing to do, especially when talking about things like language dysfunction and memory dysfunction after surgery. Dr Monteith: So, you mentioned a lot of great advances, and certainly since I was a resident, which wasn't that long ago. Why don't you tell me how some of these interventions have changed your clinical practice? Dr Friedman: Thinking about epilepsy surgery, like other surgical specialties, there's been a move to more minimally invasive approaches. For instance, when I started as an epilepsy fellow fifteen years ago, sixteen years ago, most of our surgeries involve removing a large portion of the skull, putting electrodes on the brain, doing resections through big craniotomies which were uncomfortable and risky, things like that. We now do our phase two or intracranial EEG monitoring through small burr holes in the brain using robotically placed electrodes. For many of our patients, we can actually treat their epileptic focus with a laser that is targeted through a small catheter and MRI guidance. And patients are usually home in two days with, you know, a lot less discomfort. Dr Monteith: Well, that's great. I didn't expect that one, but I do think that translates to many areas of neurology. Really just this idea of meeting their goals and personalizing their care. My last question is, what out of these advances and what you know about the future of epilepsy, what makes you the most excited and what gives you the most hope? Dr Friedman: I think there are a lot of exciting things in epilepsy. Last count I heard, there's something like over a hundred biotech companies developing epilepsy therapies. So that gives me hope that people are still interested in meeting the unmet needs of patients with epilepsy. And some of these therapies are really novel. For instance, there's a trial of stem cell treatments for drug-resistant temporal lobe epilepsy that's ongoing now, where inhibitory interneuron progenitor cells are implanted in the brain and kind of restore the brain circuit disruptions that we see in some of these epilepsies. There are combinations of drug and device therapies or gene therapy and device therapies that are in development, which have a lot of promise, and I think we'll have much more precise and targeted therapies within the next decade. Dr Monteith: Awesome. I really appreciate our conversation, and thank you so much for your wonderful article. I learned a lot reading it. Dr Friedman: Thank you. Dr Monteith: Today I've been interviewing Dr Daniel Friedman, whose article on surgical treatments, devices, tools, and non-medication management of epilepsy appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on epilepsy. Be sure to check out Continuum audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshmae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Emergency treatment may be necessary after a person's first seizure or at the onset of abnormal acute repetitive (cluster) seizures; it is required for status epilepticus. Treatment for these emergencies is dictated by myriad clinical factors and informed by published guidance as well as emerging research.   In this episode, Lyell K. Jones, MD, FAAN, speaks with David G. Vossler, MD, FAAN, FACNS, FAES, author of the article “First Seizures, Acute Repetitive Seizures, and Status Epilepticus,” in the Continuum® February 2025 Epilepsy issue. Dr. Jones is the editor-in-chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology® and is a professor of neurology at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Dr. Vossler a clinical professor of neurology at the University of Washington School of Medicine in Seattle, Washington. Additional Resources Read the article: First Seizures, Acute Repetitive Seizures, and Status Epilepticus Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the American Academy of Neurology: aan.com Social Media facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN Host: @LyellJ  Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME. Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum: Lifelong Learning in Neurology. Today, I'm interviewing Dr Dave Vossler, who has recently authored an article on emergent seizure management, taking care of patients with the first seizure, acute repetitive seizures, and status epilepticus, which is an article in our latest issue of Continuum covering all topics related to epilepsy. Dr Vossler is a neurologist at the University of Washington, where he's a clinical professor of neurology and has an active clinical and research practice in epileptology. Dr Vossler, welcome. Thank you for joining us today. Why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners? Dr Vossler: Thank you very much for the introduction, Lyell. It's a pleasure to speak with you on this podcast, and I hope to go over a lot of important new information in the management of seizure emergencies. As you said, I'm a clinical professor in neurology at University of Washington, been in medicine for many decades now and have published and done research in this area. So, I'm anxious to give you not only my academic experience, but also talk about my own management of patients with status epilepticus over the last four decades. Dr Jones: Yeah, that's fantastic. And I always appreciate hearing from experienced clinicians, and I think our readers and our listeners do appreciate that voice of clinical expertise. And I'll tell you this is a topic, you know, as a neurologist who doesn't see many patients with acute seizure emergencies in my own practice, I think this is a topic that gives many clinicians, including neurologists, some anxiety. Your article, Dr Vossler, is really chock-full of helpful and clinically relevant considerations in the acute management of seizures. So, you now have the full attention of a huge audience of mostly neurologists. What's the one most important practice change that you would like to see in the care of patients with either first or acute prolonged seizures? Dr Vossler: Without a doubt, the most important clinical takeaway with regard to the status epilepticus---and for status epilepticus, many, many clinical trials, research trials have been done over the last couple decades and they all consistently show the same thing, that by and large most patients who have status epilepticus are underdosed and undertreated and treated too slowly in the initial stages of the status epilepticus. And it's important to use full bolus dosages of benzodiazepines to prevent mortality, morbidity, and later disability of these patients. To prevent the respiratory depression, many physicians are afraid to use higher doses of benzodiazepines, even guideline-recommended doses of benzodiazepines for fear of respiratory depression. But it's actually counterintuitive. It turns out that most cases of respiratory depression are due to inadequate doses and due to the status epilepticus itself. We know there's greater mortality, we know there's greater morbidity and we know that there's greater need for higher dose, subsequent, anti-seizure medications, prolonged status, if we don't use the proper doses. So, we'll kind of go over that a little bit, but that is the one clinical takeaway that I really would like our listeners to have. Dr Jones: Let's follow that thread a little bit. Dave, I know obviously we will speak in hypotheticals here. We're not going to talk about actual patients, but I think we've all been in the clinical situation where you have a patient who comes into the emergency room usually who's actively seizing, unknown history, don't know much about the patient, don't know much about the circumstances of the onset of the seizure. But we now have a patient with prolonged convulsive seizures. How do we walk through that? What are the first steps in the management of that patient? Dr Vossler: Yeah, well, I'll try to be brief for the purposes of the podcast. We do, of course, go through all of that in detail in the Continuum article, which hopefully everybody will look at very carefully. Really in the first table, the very first table of the article, I go through the recommended guideline for the American Epilepsy Society on the management of what we call established status epilepticus. The scenario you're talking about is just exactly that: established status epilepticus. It's not sort of evolving or developing status. We're okay they're having a few seizures and we're kind of getting there. No, this patient is now having evidence of convulsive seizure activity and it's continuing or it's repeated seizures without recovery. And so, the first phase is definitely a benzodiazepine and then the second phase is then a longer-acting bolus of a drug like phosphenotoine, valproic acid or levetiracetam. I could get into the details about dosing of the benzodiazepines, but maybe I'll let you guide me on whether we wanted to get into that kind of detail right at the outset. It's going to be a little bit different. For children, its weight-based dosing, but for adults, whether you use lorazepam or you use diazepam or you use midazolam, the doses are a little bit different. But they are standardized, and gets back to this point that I made earlier, we're acting too slow. We're not getting these patients quick enough, for various reasons, and the doses that are most commonly used are below what the guidelines call for. Dr Jones: That's great to know, and I think it's fine for the details to refer our listeners to the article because there are great details in there about a step-by-step approach to the established status epilepticus. The nomenclature and the definitions have evolved, haven't they, Dr Vossler, over time? Refractory status epilepticus, new-onset refractory status epilepticus, super refractory status epilepticus. Tell us about those entities, how they're distinguished and how you approach those. Dr Vossler: That's an important thing to kind of go over. They- in 2015, the International League Against Epilepsy, ILAE, which is, again, our international organization that guides our understanding of all kinds of things epileptic in nature around the world. In 2015 they put out a definition of status epilepticus, but it used to be that patients had thirty minutes of continuous seizure activity or repetitive obvious motor seizures with impairment of awareness and they don't recover impairment between these seizures. And that goes on for thirty minutes. That was the old definition of status epilepticus. Now, the operational definition is five minutes. And I think that's key to understand that, after five minutes of this kind of overt seizure activity, you need to intervene. And that's what's called T1 in the 2015 guideline, the international guideline. There are a bunch of different axes in the classification of status that talk about semiology, etiology, EEG patterns, and what age group you're talking about. We won't really get into those in the Continuum article because that's really more detailed than a clinician really should be. Needing to think about the stages, what we call the stages of status epilepticus that you mentioned and I alluded to earlier are important. And that is sort of new nomenclature, and I think probably general neurologists and most emergency room physicians aren't familiar with those. So, it just briefly goes through those. Developing status epilepticus is where you're starting- the patient’s starting to have more frequent seizures, and it's heading essentially in the wrong direction, if you will. Established status epilepticus, as I mentioned, is, you know, this seizure act, convulsive or major, major outward overt seizure activity lasting five minutes or more, at which time therapy needs to begin. Again, getting back to my point, what doesn't happen often enough is we're not- we're intervening too late. Third is refractory status epilepticus, which refers to status epilepticus which continues despite adequate doses of an initial benzodiazepine given parenterally followed by a full loading dose of a single non-sedating anti-seizure medicine, which today includes phosphenotoine IV valproic acid or IV levetiracetam. In the United States, and increasingly around the world, people really are using levetiracetam. First, it has some advantages. There's now proof from a class one NIH-funded trial. We know that these three drugs are equivalent at the full doses that I go over in the article. You have your kind of dealer's choice on those. Phenobarbital, which we used to use and I used as a resident as long as forty years ago, is really a second choice drug because of its sedating and other side effects. But around the world in resource-poor countries phenobarbital can be used and, in a pinch, certainly is an appropriate drug. And then finally, you mentioned super refractory status epilepticus and that's status that's persisting for more than twenty four hours. Now, despite initial benzo and non-sedating anti-seizure medicine, but also lasting more than twenty four hours while receiving an intravenous infusional sedating, anesthetizing anti-seizure medicine like ketamine, propofol, pentobarbital or midazolam drips. Dr Jones: So, it sounds like the definitions have evolved in a way that improves the outcomes, right? To do earlier identification of status epilepticus and more aggressive management, I think that's a great takeaway. If we move all the way to the other end of the spectrum, let's move to the ambulatory setting and we have a patient who comes in and they've had one seizure, they're an adult; one seizure, the first seizure. The key question is, how do we anticipate the risk of future seizures? But walk us through how you talk to that patient, how you evaluate that patient to decide if and when to start anti-seizure medicines. Dr Vossler: Well, it depends a little bit if it's an adult or a child, but the decision making process and the data behind it is pretty robust now. And the decision making process is pretty similar for adults and children, with some differences which I can talk about. First of all, first seizures. I think it's really important to stress that there's been so much research in this area. I'd like to get a cross point that they're not as innocuous as I think many general neurologists might suspect. We know that there is a two- to threefold increased risk of death in children and adults following a first seizure. Moreover, the risk of a second seizure, both in kids and adults, is about 36% two years after that first seizure. It's about 46% five years after that first seizure. It's really pretty substantial. The risk of a second seizure is increased twofold. It doubled in the presence of any kind of a history of prior brain insults that could result in seizures. Could be infections, it could be a prior stroke, it could be prior significant brain trauma. It's also doubled in the presence of an EEG, which shows epileptiform discharges like spikes and sharp waves---and not just a sort of borderline things like sharply contoured rhythmic Theta activity. That's really not what we're talking about. We're talking about overt epileptiform discharges. It's doubled in the presence of lesion that can be seen on imaging studies, and it's doubled in the presence of seizures if that first seizure occurs during sleep. So, we have a number of things that double the risks, above the risk of a second seizure, above that 36% at two years and 46% at five years that I spoke about. And so those things need to be considered when you're counseling a patient about that. Should you be on an anti-seizure medicine after that first seizure? Specifically, to the point of anti-seizure medications, the guideline that was done, the 2015 guideline that was done by the American Academy of Neurology for adults, and the 2003 guideline was actually a practice parameter that was done by the Academy and the American Epilepsy Society for children, are really kind of out of date. They talk about the adverse effects of anti-seizure medications, but when you look back at the studies that were included in developing that practice parameter for kids and guidelines for adults, they are the old drugs: carbamazepine, phenytoin, phenobarbital and valproate. Well, I don't think I need to tell this audience, this well-educated audience, that we don't use those drugs anymore. We are using more modern anti-seizure medicines that have been developed since 1995; things like lamotrigine, levetiracetam, and lecosamide. Those three in particular have very low adverse events. So, the guideline that the Academy, American Academy Neurology and American Epilepsy Society put together for kids and for adults talks about this high adverse event profile. And so, you need to take a look at the risks that I talked about of a seizure recurrence and balance that against adverse effects. But I'm here to tell you that the newer anti-seizure medicines---and by newer I'm talking in the last thirty years since lamotrigine was approved in 1995---these drugs have much better side effect profiles. And I think all epileptologists would agree with that. They're not necessarily more effective, but they are better tolerated. That makes the discussion of the risk of a second seizure, the risk of mortality versus side effects of drugs, it really pushes the risk category higher on the first side and not on the side of drugs. We know that if you take an anti-seizure medicine, you reduce your risk of a second seizure by half. Now, that's not sustained over five years, but over the first two years, you've reduced it by half. In a person who's driving, needs to get to work, has to take the kids to school, whatever, most of my patients are like, yeah, okay, sign me up. These drugs are really pretty well tolerated. There's a substantial risk of a second seizure. So, I'll do that. In a kid,  a child that's, you know, not driving yet, that might be a different discussion. And the parents might say, well, I'd rather not have my son exposed, my daughter exposed to this. They're trying to go to school. They're trying to learn. We don't want to hinder that. We'll wait for a second seizure and then if they have a second seizure, which by the way is, you know, one of the definitions of epilepsy, well then they have epilepsy, then they probably will need to go on the seizure medication. Dr Jones: Great summary, Dr Vossler, and it is worth our audience being aware that the evidence has evolved alongside the improvement in the adverse effect profile. And sounds like your threshold is a little lower to treat then maybe it would have been some time ago, right? Dr Vossler: I would say that's exactly correct in my opinion. Particularly for adults, absolutely. Dr Jones: That's fantastic, Dr Vossler. I imagine there are a lot of aspects of caring for these patients that are challenging, and I imagine many scenarios are actually pretty rewarding. What do you find the most rewarding aspect of caring for patients with acute seizure management? Dr Vossler: Yes, I mean, that is really true. I would say that the most challenging things are treating refractory status epilepticus, but worse yet, new onset refractory status epilepticus and the super refractory status epilepticus, which I talk extensively about or write extensively about in the article and provide a lot of guidance on. Really, those conditions are so challenging because they can go on for such a long time. Patients are hospitalized for a long time. A lot of really good clinical guidance doesn't exist yet. There is a tremendous amount of research in that area which I find exciting, and really there's an amazing amount of international research on that, I think most of our audience probably is unaware of. And certainly, with those conditions, there is a high risk of later disability and mortality. We go through all of that in the article. The rewards really come from helping these people. When someone was super refractory status and it were non- sorry, new onset refractory status epilepticus, has been in the hospital for thirty days, it gets really hard for everybody; the family, the patient. And for us, it wears on us. Yet when they walk out the door, and I've had these people come back to the epilepsy clinic and see me later. We're managing their anti-seizure medications. They've survived. The NORSE patients often have substantial disability. They have cognitive and memory and even some psychiatric disability. But yet we can help them. It's not just management in the hospital, but it's getting to know these people, and I take them from the hospital and see them in my clinic and manage them long-term. I get a lot of great satisfaction out of that. We're hoping to do even better, stop patients’ status early and get them to recover with no sequelae. Dr Jones: What a great visual, seeing those patients who have a devastating problem and they come back to clinic and you get the full circle. And what a great place to end. Dr Vossler, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for such a thorough and fascinating discussion on the importance of understanding and managing patients with the first seizure, acute repetitive seizures, and status epilepticus. Dr Vossler: Thank you very much, Lyell. Dr Jones: Again, we've been speaking with Dr Dave Vossler, author of an article on emergent seizure management, first seizures, acute repetitive seizures and status epilepticus in Continuum's most recent issue on epilepsy. Please check it out, and thank you to our listeners for joining today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.

Genetic testing plays a key role in the evaluation of epilepsy patients. With the expanding number of choices for genetic tests and the complexity of interpretation of results, genetic literacy and knowledge of the most common genetic epilepsies are important for high-quality clinical practice. In this episode, Gordon Smith, MD, FAAN speaks Sudha Kilaru Kessler, MD, MSCE, author of the article “Epilepsy Genetics,” in the Continuum February 2025 Epilepsy issue. Dr. Smith is a Continuum® Audio interviewer and a professor and chair of neurology at Kenneth and Dianne Wright Distinguished Chair in Clinical and Translational Research at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia. Dr. Kessler is an associate professor of neurology and pediatrics at Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania and Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. ADDITIONAL RESOURCES Read the article: Epilepsy Genetics Subscribe to Continuum: shop.lww.com/Continuum Earn CME (available only to AAN members): continpub.com/AudioCME Continuum® Aloud (verbatim audio-book style recordings of articles available only to Continuum® subscribers): continpub.com/Aloud More about the Academy of Neurology: aan.com SOCIAL MEDIA facebook.com/continuumcme @ContinuumAAN  Host: @gordonsmithMD Full episode transcript available here Dr Jones: This is Dr Lyell Jones, Editor-in-Chief of Continuum, the premier topic-based neurology clinical review and CME journal from the American Academy of Neurology. Thank you for joining us on Continuum Audio, which features conversations with Continuum's guest editors and authors who are the leading experts in their fields. Subscribers to the Continuum journal can read the full article or listen to verbatim recordings of the article and have access to exclusive interviews not featured on the podcast. Please visit the link in the episode notes for more information on the article, subscribing to the journal, and how to get CME. Dr Smith: Hello, this is Dr Gordon Smith. Today I've got the great pleasure of interviewing Dr Sudha Kessler about her article on epilepsy genetics, which appears in the February 2025 Continuum issue on epilepsy. Sudha, welcome to the podcast and please introduce yourself to our audience. Dr Kessler: Oh, thank you so much. I'm Sudha Kessler. I am a pediatric epileptologist here at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and the University of Pennsylvania. Dr Smith: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Are you a geneticist too, or how did you get into this particular topic? Dr Kessler: Yes, I want to emphatically say that I am not a geneticist. I'm not an expert in epilepsy genetics at all. I take care of all sorts of patients with epilepsy. I actually do mostly epilepsy surgery-related care. But this part of epilepsy is, every year, increasingly important to our everyday practice. And I think it's fascinating, often a little daunting. I think I was asked to get involved with this article as a non-expert to help translate from the experts to the rest of us. Dr Smith: We're going to get there, because one of the things you do a really good job of in the article is talking about genetic concepts that are germane to everything we do. And I think you're an expert. You do it in a way that I understood. So, I'd like to get there, but- and this is a really hot area. For instance, I really loved your figure that shows the arc of discovery of genetic causes for epilepsy. It's really breathtaking, something we wouldn't have thought possible that long ago. And it's also a lot to digest. And so, I wonder if maybe we can begin by thinking about a framework and, for instance, you talk about these different groups of disorders. And one that seems to be particularly impacted by this unbelievable A-rated discovery. Our developmental and epileptic encephalopathies, or DEEs. What can you tell our listeners about that group of disorders? Dr Kessler: Sure. I think that, you know, most of what we think about in epilepsy genetics now has to do with disorders that are attributable to changes in a single gene. Genetics is obviously much more complicated than that, but that's still where we are in the stage of discovery. And the graph in the article is definitely one to take a look at because it represents the explosion that we've had in our understanding of single gene disorders leading to epilepsy and related manifestations. The DEEs are a group of disorders where any individual disorder is fairly rare, but as a group they are not that rare, and very impactful because they often cause epilepsy at a very young age. And either as a consequence of seizures or as a consequence of the underlying pathophysiology of that gene change, they are typically associated with really significant developmental impairments for a child 's entire life. Dr Smith: My understanding is that there's therapeutic development going on in this space. So, the early recognition of these genetic testing offers the promise of very impactful treatment---like we now do for SMA, for instance---early in the disease course. Dr Kessler: I think that's right. That's one of the most exciting parts of this field is that so much, just around the corner, for drug development, therapy development in this area. And as you can imagine, with a lot of these disorders, earlier intervention is likely to be much more impactful than later intervention when a lot of the developmental consequences are sort of… you know, when the cat 's already out of the bag, so to speak. Dr Smith: Yeah. So, this is really transformational and something that everyone who takes care of kids with epilepsy needs to know about, it seems. So on the other extreme, I guess, there are the self-limited epilepsies. I didn't really know about this in terms of genetic discovery, but can you talk about those disorders? Dr Kessler: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think some of these are the classic childhood epilepsy syndromes that we think about like childhood absence epilepsy or what we used to call benign romantic epilepsy and now call self-limited epilepsy of childhood with centrotemporal spikes. It's a mouthful, shortened to SeLECTS. Those are the epilepsies that occur typically in previously healthy children, that affects them for a few years and often remits so that epilepsy is just age-limited and doesn't continue for life. They clearly have genetic influences because they tend to run in families, but the genetics of them is not generally single gene associated. And so, we haven't actually explained why most of those kids actually get epilepsy. I think that'll be sort of another interesting area of discovery that will help us even understand some really fundamental things about epilepsy, like, why does this syndrome start at this age and tend to resolve by adolescence? Dr Smith: And the other thing I found interesting is disorders that I might have thought going into it would have a defined genetic cause or some of the disorders that there are not. So JME, for instance, or childhood absence, which is a little counterintuitive. Dr Kessler: It's completely counterintuitive. We call them genetic generalized epilepsies, and we know that they run in families, but we still know so little. I would say of all of the disorders that are mentioned in this article, that is the group where I think we have explained the genetic underpinnings the least well. Dr Smith: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? It's… wasn't it Yogi Berra who said, it's hard to predict things, particularly the future? So… Dr Kessler: Yes. Dr Smith: Who would have thought? So, we’ve talked a lot about kids. What about adults? You know, what role does genetic testing play in adults who have unexplained epilepsy? Dr Kessler: Yeah, I think that that is also a really important emerging area of knowledge. I think many epileptologists may think of genetic epilepsy as being solely pediatric. There are definitely not how many of these disorders can manifest for the first time in adulthood. Not only that, many of our children with childhood onset epilepsy that is due to a genetic problem grow up to become adults and will then need adult epilepsy care. In order to take care of both of those groups, it's really important for all epileptologists, including those that take care of adults, to have some knowledge of the potential impact of genetic testing. And how do you even approach thinking about it? Dr Smith: The message I guess I'm getting is if our listeners take care of patients with epilepsy, no matter how old those patients are, they need to be familiar with this. And the other message I'm getting is, it sounds like there are a lot of patients who really need genetic testing. And this came through in one aspect of your article that I found really interesting, right? So, what are the recommendations on genetic testing? So, the National Society of Genetic Counselors, as I understand it, said everyone needs genetic testing, right? Which I mean, they're genetic counselors, so. Which is great. In the International League Against Epilepsy, they recommended a more targeted approach. So, what's your recommendation? Should we be testing anyone with unexplained epilepsy, or should we be focusing on particular populations? Dr Kessler: Well, I guess I think about it as a gradation. There are certain populations that really deserve genetic testing, where it is going to be absolutely critical. You know, it's very likely that it will be critical knowledge to their care. If you diagnose somebody with epilepsy and you do imaging and that imaging does not reveal an answer, meaning you don't see a tumor or you don't see an old stroke or some other sort of acquired lesion, the next pillar of testing for understanding underlying etiology is genetic testing. That is the point at which I typically send my patients, and that's whether they're refractory or not. I think in the past some people felt that only patients with refractory epilepsy deserve or require testing. I think the reason why not to limit it to that population is that what's on a person's mind with epilepsy, or a family's mind with epilepsy, is what's going to happen to my child or to me in the future? And if genetic testing can shed some light on that, that will have a huge impact on that person's life. Dr Smith: You've got great cases in your article, which, I just want to give you a compliment. The information and entertainment, frankly, for per page: off the charts. It's not a long article, packed with useful information. And, I mean, some of your cases are great examples of patients who are heading down the surgical epilepsy path and you discovered, nope, there's a genetic cause that really impacted their care. What's the yield, right? The number of patients that you send genetic testing on for epilepsy, what percentage come back positive for a relevant sequence variant that you think is either causing or contributing to their epilepsy? Dr Kessler: That's a great question. I think that is actually still in flux because it depends on the population of patients that are being sent for testing, obviously, and then also on what testing is being done. So, I know in at least one large recent meta-analysis, the overall yield was 17%. And somebody hearing that number might think, oh, that's not very high, but it's actually very comparable to the yield for imaging. And we all do MRIs and patients that have new-onset epilepsy where the yield of MRI testing is about 20%  or so. So, quite comparable. And then with children with DEEs, the yield is much, much higher than that. Dr Smith: So, 17% is actually a really great diagnostic yield. When I think of my yield and doing genetic testing on patients who have an axonal CMT phenotype, right? I mean that's better than what I get. So, good for you. That's exciting. Dr Kessler: It's interesting. I think that maybe an assumption might be that you're working somebody up. You do a genetic test, it reveals a difference, and thus surgery is off the table. It's actually quite different than the head, which is that some results may make surgery be even more “on the table” because you might find a gene that is known to be associated with a propensity to vocal cortical dysplasia, for example. And you may take a good second look at that person's MRI imaging or do other imaging to reveal the MRI invisible vocal cortical dysplasia. Dr Smith: Outstanding point. Let's talk a little more about the genetic testing itself. So, we've got all these genes. We understand when to test. What do you do? For instance, last night I just looked at the company that we use for most of our neuromuscular testing and they have a genetic epilepsy next gen panel with, I don't know, three hundred and twenty genes, right? Do you use that kind of panel? Do you go directly to a whole EXO? What's the right approach? Dr Kessler: Yeah, I think that that is quite dynamic right now, meaning that recommendations seem to change often enough that I rely on help. I have the enormous good luck of working here at CHOP where there is a fantastic epilepsy genetics group that I can easily refer to, and I know not everyone has that resource. The current recommendation is to start with an exome if that is available and is covered by that patient's insurance. When exome is not available, then the next best thing is a gene panel. You know, in recent years there have been a lot of sponsored gene panels, meaning free to the patient, administered by a company that then, you know, has other uses for compiled or grouped genetic data. And I think that as long as all of that can be clearly explained to a patient, and- along with all of the other things so you have to explain to a patient before doing genetic testing, about the pluses and minuses of doing it, I think that you sort of go for the best test you can that's available to that patient. Dr Smith: The sponsored programs can be very, very helpful, particularly from a payer or a patient payment perspective. And so, I guess the lesson there is it's great if you got the resources and CHOP to help you decide, but better to get whatever panel you can get than to do nothing; or, of course, refer to a center if you're not comfortable. Dr Kessler: And also, just know that these things change often enough that if it's been a couple of years and you might want to recheck whether the EXO is available to that patient or whether a gene panel can be sent that includes more than they had eight years ago. Dr Smith: So, are there situations to go to the other extreme where you just do targeted sanger sequencing? Like, just sequence the specific gene of interest?  Dr Kessler: Yeah, absolutely. I'm still a big proponent of thinking clinically about a patient. If there are clues in that patient's history, exam, imaging, anything that gives you some sense of the disorder that this patient might have. And I think a classic example would be tuberous sclerosis. If you see an infant who has new onset spasms, you see hypopigmented macules on their skin and their MRI shows a tuber, you know, also known as a focal cortical dysplasia, then sure, send the targeted sequencing for the TSC1 and TSC2 genes. Dr Smith: And Rett syndrome?  Dr Kessler: And Rett syndrome would be another example. And there are many examples where, if you feel like you have a good sense of what the disorder is, I think it's completely acceptable to send the targeted testing.  Dr Smith: So, I'm going to get further down the rabbit hole and get to from easier to harder. I always get confused about things like chromosomal microarrays or, like, karyotypes and rings and stuff like that. What role do these tests play and what do our listeners need to know about them? Dr Kessler: Yeah, I think that it is really important to have at least some knowledge of what each test can't tell you. I tell my medical students at my residence that all the time. With anything in medicine, you should know what you're asking of a test and what answers a test can tell you and can't tell you. It is baseline knowledge before requesting anything. And if you don't know, then it's best to ask. So, chromosomal microarray is used when you think that there is a large-scale derangement in a bunch of genes, meaning there is a whole section of a chromosome missing---that would be deletion, or that that information is duplicated or is turned around in a, you know, in a translocation. That is what- the kinds of things that that test can tell you. I think of doing a microarray when a child has not just epilepsy and intellectual disability, but also has, for example, other organ systems involved, because sections of chromosome can include many, many, many different genes and it can affect the body in larger ways. That's often when I think about that. So, a child with multiple congenital anomalies. Karyotype, which we think of as the most old-fashioned way of looking at our genes, still has some utility because it is useful for looking at a specific situation where the ends of arm of a chromosome get cut off and get sticky and then stick to each other and make a ring. For example, ring chromosome 20 is a disorder which can cause epilepsy, particularly hard-to-treat frontal lobe epilepsy, and that sometimes doesn't show up until adolescence or even early adulthood. That's just one example of something that karyotype can tell you.  Dr Smith: And it goes without saying, but just to emphasize, these are things that you would miss completely on a next generation panel or a next genome? Dr Kessler: That's correct. Because this isn't about sequencing. This is about large structures. You know, with my patients, it's sometimes, I think, very hard to explain. It's hard enough to explain it to other physicians who aren't in genetics, but it's a whole other undertaking to explain it to families who may not have a lot of literacy about cell biology or genetics or, you know, anything related to that. So, I often rely on analogies. And one analogy I use is that if you're- all of your genetic information is like a book, that book is split into chapters and those are the chromosomes. And you can be missing entire paragraphs or have paragraphs duplicated. And that would be the kind of thing that we would be looking for with the chromosomal microarray with sequencing or, you know, with sequencing, we're looking for spelling of words, and we can look at one word at a time. That would be targeted sequencing. Or we can look at many, many words at a time. And that would be next gen sequencing.  Dr Smith: I just want to say that you are the genetic whisperer. You know, translator. I love it.  Dr Kessler: You can continue using it down to the level of explaining the possibility of a variant of unknown significance, which I think is sometimes difficult to explain. So, I often will say, I know how the word color is spelled: C O L O R. But sometimes in other places it will be spelled C O L O U R and that's still the same word, that's still color. That's just what we would call a population variant. If it is spelled C O M O R, that changes meaning; that is not a word, and that is probably a pathogenic variant. But if it gets misspelled and it’s K O L O R, then I'm not sure. Could that be a variant that means something different or not. And so that I would call that a variant of unknown significance, meaning its impact is to be determined. Dr Smith: So, I was going to ask you about variant calling, but you'd beat me to the punch. And that's a great metaphor that I will definitely remember. All right, here's another concept that I think people often find challenging, which is read depth. Can you tell us about reading depth or sequence depth?  Dr Kessler: Yes, hopefully I can. Again, not an expert here, but as I understand it, the way next gen sequencing works is that pieces of DNA are getting read. And the number of times any given nucleotide is read in this process is the read depth. It basically just translates to the number of times the processor, the machinery of doing this, pays attention to anyone site. The reason it's important is that the process by which this reading is done can sometimes result in errors. The greater your depth, the more times something is read, the less likely you are to have a mistake.  Dr Smith: In either direction. So, you're presumably less likely to have a false positive or false negative. Yep, again, very well explained. You know, I've got a lot of other questions I want to ask you, but I do want to be respectful of our listeners’ time. I wonder if we could pivot a little bit and just let's go back to where we began. Really exciting time, right? Amazing. And you've been doing this long enough. I'm sure you didn't think when you started that it was going to look like this. What does the future look like? I mean, we talked a little bit about therapeutics, but the world's changing fast. Five, ten years from now, what's your hope for that?  Dr Kessler: Oh, that's such a great question. You know, we are at the point with genetic epilepsies that gene-based therapies, either antisense oligonucleotide-based therapies or viral vector-based gene therapies, are actually now being developed and administered in trial situations to actual patients. And so, it always feels like we're on the cusp, but I think actually now we really are on the cusp of having gene-based therapies for genetic epilepsies. I think that there is still so much to sort out, both from basic scientific point and from a practical administering these things to patients and what are the potential long term consequences.For example, unlike medications, which are therapies that you can stop if there are adverse effects, often administering a gene therapy is a one-and-done thing that can't be retracted. Thinking even about the ethical framework of that and the framework of explaining to patients that we don't know the ten, twenty-year consequences of that, is part of the informed consent process, for example. So, there's still so much work that is going to be transformational, not just from the, you know, the big picture, but from developing all, you know, from going through all of these steps to really make these kinds of therapies a reality. Dr Smith: Well, it's really amazing. And, you know, we're seeing this in multiple different areas in neurology. So, well done. You run the child neurology residency program there, I understand. I try to snoop on people before I talk to them because we haven't met before this. And you're obviously a very a very good educator. Thank you so much for talking with me today. I don't spend a lot of time in epilepsy, but every time I do one of these, I kind of want to go back and do something different because it's such a neat field. Thank you.  Dr Kessler: You're welcome. It was my pleasure.  Dr Smith: Again, today I've been interviewing Dr Sudha Kessler about her article on epilepsy genetics, which is truly outstanding. This article appears in the most recent issue of Continuum on epilepsy. Be sure to check out Continuum audio episodes from this and other issues. And thank you, listeners, for joining us today. Dr Monteith: This is Dr Teshamae Monteith, Associate Editor of Continuum Audio. If you've enjoyed this episode, you'll love the journal, which is full of in-depth and clinically relevant information important for neurology practitioners. Use this link in the episode notes to learn more and subscribe. AAN members, you can get CME for listening to this interview by completing the evaluation at continpub.com/audioCME. Thank you for listening to Continuum Audio.